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Are mandatory covid vaccinations justified?
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04MR17
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#1
This thread has been set up as a result of a derailed conversation in the Health forum.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the above question: Are forced covid vaccinations justified?
Within this thread, there are a series of rules that all users must follow when posting:
1. Please make sure all posts are within TSR Community Guidelines.
2. Please don't make discussions personal. Debate the point, not the person.
3. Please provide sources for any claims you may have made that could be contested by other users.
4. Please be respectful towards other users at all times.
5. Please avoid using unhelpful nicknames like "anti-vaxxers" or "covid zealots". They aren't helpful to the discussion and often lead to generalisations and assumptions.
EDIT: 6. Please adhere to TSR's Covid-19 Misinformation policy when posting in this thread.
Volunteer Note: For advice, guidance and up-to-date information on Coronavirus/COVID-19, please check out the NHS, UK Government, and Mind (mental health) web-pages.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the above question: Are forced covid vaccinations justified?
Within this thread, there are a series of rules that all users must follow when posting:
1. Please make sure all posts are within TSR Community Guidelines.
2. Please don't make discussions personal. Debate the point, not the person.
3. Please provide sources for any claims you may have made that could be contested by other users.
4. Please be respectful towards other users at all times.
5. Please avoid using unhelpful nicknames like "anti-vaxxers" or "covid zealots". They aren't helpful to the discussion and often lead to generalisations and assumptions.
EDIT: 6. Please adhere to TSR's Covid-19 Misinformation policy when posting in this thread.
Volunteer Note: For advice, guidance and up-to-date information on Coronavirus/COVID-19, please check out the NHS, UK Government, and Mind (mental health) web-pages.
Last edited by 04MR17; 3 months ago
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BFrench501
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#2
(Original post by Anonymous)
Do you have any plans for when you'll be forced to have them to enter places?
Do you have any plans for when you'll be forced to have them to enter places?
People who choose not to get vaccinated and then end up in hospital shouldn't get any medical assistance, because they are the ones who believe it's a hoax or conspiracy.
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet. Some young people really are ignorant to so many issues. 😒
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Don'tAskMe
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#3
(Original post by BFrench501)
Nobody is being forced to, but every choice in life has consequences and if you want to become a drain on the NHS by potentially becoming very ill with a virus we still don't fully understand, then your choices come with those consequences.
People who choose not to get vaccinated and then end up in hospital shouldn't get any medical assistance, because they are the ones who believe it's a hoax or conspiracy.
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet. Some young people really are ignorant to so many issues. 😒
Nobody is being forced to, but every choice in life has consequences and if you want to become a drain on the NHS by potentially becoming very ill with a virus we still don't fully understand, then your choices come with those consequences.
People who choose not to get vaccinated and then end up in hospital shouldn't get any medical assistance, because they are the ones who believe it's a hoax or conspiracy.
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet. Some young people really are ignorant to so many issues. 😒
I hope you try to be more open minded in the future, because one day you might be on the other side of an argument just like that.
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Bio 7
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#4
(Original post by BFrench501)
Nobody is being forced to, but every choice in life has consequences and if you want to become a drain on the NHS by potentially becoming very ill with a virus we still don't fully understand, then your choices come with those consequences.
People who choose not to get vaccinated and then end up in hospital shouldn't get any medical assistance, because they are the ones who believe it's a hoax or conspiracy.
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet. Some young people really are ignorant to so many issues. 😒
Nobody is being forced to, but every choice in life has consequences and if you want to become a drain on the NHS by potentially becoming very ill with a virus we still don't fully understand, then your choices come with those consequences.
People who choose not to get vaccinated and then end up in hospital shouldn't get any medical assistance, because they are the ones who believe it's a hoax or conspiracy.
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet. Some young people really are ignorant to so many issues. 😒
Last edited by Bio 7; 9 months ago
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Don'tAskMe
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#5
(Original post by Bio 7)
By the same logic we should deny people medical treatment for any complications from medications and vaccines they have had. People have a right to decide what is and isn't put into them and for many they are still considering this to be tasting time on millions of people and don't want it.
By the same logic we should deny people medical treatment for any complications from medications and vaccines they have had. People have a right to decide what is and isn't put into them and for many they are still considering this to be tasting time on millions of people and don't want it.
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BFrench501
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#6
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
You do understand that the NHS is funded by public taxes. Are you suggesting the same people who pay for the NHS don't get treated by the NHS. Denying people medical treatment just because they wanted to exercise their bodily autonomy is a really sick and twisted thing to suggest. There are plenty of people who are simply scared of the vaccine. Scared of what it'll do, how it will affect them. Maybe they're scared of needles, who knows. But denying them treatment...real sick.
I hope you try to be more open minded in the future, because one day you might be on the other side of an argument just like that.
You do understand that the NHS is funded by public taxes. Are you suggesting the same people who pay for the NHS don't get treated by the NHS. Denying people medical treatment just because they wanted to exercise their bodily autonomy is a really sick and twisted thing to suggest. There are plenty of people who are simply scared of the vaccine. Scared of what it'll do, how it will affect them. Maybe they're scared of needles, who knows. But denying them treatment...real sick.
I hope you try to be more open minded in the future, because one day you might be on the other side of an argument just like that.
Maybe it is twisted to say people who think covid is a hoax/conspiracy shouldn't get access to treatment, but it is equally disgusting that those cretins can think that this is some sort of global conspiracy. They are quite willing to go out, not care about what other think, and quite happily go around not caring if they are asymptomatic. "I'm alright jack"
If somebody has a good reason for not wanting it then fine. But the covid denying scum can go and rot. Some of the things we all have had to endure this past 18 months or so, losing loved ones or knowing someone who has lost someone, and they still deny its existence.
I'm afraid of needles. I had the vaccine because I would rather be safe than sorry. Vaccines don't just get released without rigorous testing here in Europe. It just doesn't work. Maybe it does in Russia and China, but not here.
People seriously believe that the vaccine has a chip in it. How dumb is that, when we all walk around with a device which tells anyone who cares what we are doing at all times, and hears what we say etc?
I'm sorry for my view perhaps being unfairly harsh on those who have good reason, because it was not my intention to discriminate them. But the outright covid-denying folk can die for all I care. Because they are insulting a large number of people who have lost friends or family.
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BFrench501
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#7
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
Exactly!
Exactly!
If you can't have it for legitimate reasons such as allergies etc, that is obviously fine.
I realise my view is probably over the top but having lost loved ones to Covid, and seeing how Covid has affected everybody emotionally, I'm past the point of giving respect to ignorant people.
Measles is flaring up through Europe. A disease that can be virtually eradicated but isn't due to the anti-vaxxers.
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Don'tAskMe
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#8
(Original post by BFrench501)
Noooooo, I never realised that the NHS was publicly funded. Shock horror wow!
Maybe it is twisted to say people who think covid is a hoax/conspiracy shouldn't get access to treatment, but it is equally disgusting that those cretins can think that this is some sort of global conspiracy. They are quite willing to go out, not care about what other think, and quite happily go around not caring if they are asymptomatic. "I'm alright jack"
If somebody has a good reason for not wanting it then fine. But the covid denying scum can go and rot. Some of the things we all have had to endure this past 18 months or so, losing loved ones or knowing someone who has lost someone, and they still deny its existence.
I'm afraid of needles. I had the vaccine because I would rather be safe than sorry. Vaccines don't just get released without rigorous testing here in Europe. It just doesn't work. Maybe it does in Russia and China, but not here.
People seriously believe that the vaccine has a chip in it. How dumb is that, when we all walk around with a device which tells anyone who cares what we are doing at all times, and hears what we say etc?
I'm sorry for my view perhaps being unfairly harsh on those who have good reason, because it was not my intention to discriminate them. But the outright covid-denying folk can die for all I care. Because they are insulting a large number of people who have lost friends or family.
Noooooo, I never realised that the NHS was publicly funded. Shock horror wow!
Maybe it is twisted to say people who think covid is a hoax/conspiracy shouldn't get access to treatment, but it is equally disgusting that those cretins can think that this is some sort of global conspiracy. They are quite willing to go out, not care about what other think, and quite happily go around not caring if they are asymptomatic. "I'm alright jack"
If somebody has a good reason for not wanting it then fine. But the covid denying scum can go and rot. Some of the things we all have had to endure this past 18 months or so, losing loved ones or knowing someone who has lost someone, and they still deny its existence.
I'm afraid of needles. I had the vaccine because I would rather be safe than sorry. Vaccines don't just get released without rigorous testing here in Europe. It just doesn't work. Maybe it does in Russia and China, but not here.
People seriously believe that the vaccine has a chip in it. How dumb is that, when we all walk around with a device which tells anyone who cares what we are doing at all times, and hears what we say etc?
I'm sorry for my view perhaps being unfairly harsh on those who have good reason, because it was not my intention to discriminate them. But the outright covid-denying folk can die for all I care. Because they are insulting a large number of people who have lost friends or family.
My only issue right now is the possible stripping of every-bodies bodily autonomy. That is my only concern. You wouldn't want to live in a world where you would be forced, by fear or coercion, to do something, or have something, that you don't want. That's a sticky road that no-one wants to walk down.
Another issue I have, maybe you could enlighten me, is if the vaccine is so wonderful, why can't the people who are scared of dying from Covid-19 get the vaccine and feel safe? I mean, if I'm riding a bike with a helmet on, I wouldn't expect people in the cars driving around me to wear helmets in the car...to protect me... If I feel safe then I shouldn't feel the need to force someone else to wear a helmet to protect me. I hope I'm making some sense.
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BFrench501
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#9
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
Who said the vaccine has a chip in it? You're quoting a very small select number of people who believe that. There are plenty of reasons people might not want to have it. I'm not on one side or the other.
My only issue right now is the possible stripping of every-bodies bodily autonomy. That is my only concern. You wouldn't want to live in a world where you would be forced, by fear or coercion, to do something, or have something, that you don't want. That's a sticky road that no-one wants to walk down.
Another issue I have, maybe you could enlighten me, is if the vaccine is so wonderful, why can't the people who are scared of dying from Covid-19 get the vaccine and feel safe? I mean, if I'm riding a bike with a helmet on, I wouldn't expect people in the cars driving around me to wear helmets in the car...to protect me... If I feel safe then I shouldn't feel the need to force someone else to wear a helmet to protect me. I hope I'm making some sense.
Who said the vaccine has a chip in it? You're quoting a very small select number of people who believe that. There are plenty of reasons people might not want to have it. I'm not on one side or the other.
My only issue right now is the possible stripping of every-bodies bodily autonomy. That is my only concern. You wouldn't want to live in a world where you would be forced, by fear or coercion, to do something, or have something, that you don't want. That's a sticky road that no-one wants to walk down.
Another issue I have, maybe you could enlighten me, is if the vaccine is so wonderful, why can't the people who are scared of dying from Covid-19 get the vaccine and feel safe? I mean, if I'm riding a bike with a helmet on, I wouldn't expect people in the cars driving around me to wear helmets in the car...to protect me... If I feel safe then I shouldn't feel the need to force someone else to wear a helmet to protect me. I hope I'm making some sense.
I am sorry, but I genuinely don't see where anyone is being coerced into having the vaccine? Please help me understand this as I am struggling. I promise that I am not being sarcastic. I may be too sheltered to see the reality of it...
Your analogy makes sense and I totally see your points. You construct your argument well - something I need to improve on while at uni!
I haven't said the vaccine is wonderful though.
I've had both jabs but still lead a life of caution because I know it isn't anywhere near 100% effective. I feel safer than no jab, but I still don't feel safe. If I have contact with anyone it is outdoors. If it has to be indoors every window is open.
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Don'tAskMe
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#10
(Original post by BFrench501)
There may be a small number for the 'chip conspiracy', but there are more who believe it is deliberately being engineered to enable 'the reset'.
I am sorry, but I genuinely don't see where anyone is being coerced into having the vaccine? Please help me understand this as I am struggling. I promise that I am not being sarcastic. I may be too sheltered to see the reality of it...
Your analogy makes sense and I totally see your points. You construct your argument well - something I need to improve on while at uni!
I haven't said the vaccine is wonderful though.
I've had both jabs but still lead a life of caution because I know it isn't anywhere near 100% effective. I feel safer than no jab, but I still don't feel safe. If I have contact with anyone it is outdoors. If it has to be indoors every window is open.
There may be a small number for the 'chip conspiracy', but there are more who believe it is deliberately being engineered to enable 'the reset'.
I am sorry, but I genuinely don't see where anyone is being coerced into having the vaccine? Please help me understand this as I am struggling. I promise that I am not being sarcastic. I may be too sheltered to see the reality of it...
Your analogy makes sense and I totally see your points. You construct your argument well - something I need to improve on while at uni!
I haven't said the vaccine is wonderful though.
I've had both jabs but still lead a life of caution because I know it isn't anywhere near 100% effective. I feel safer than no jab, but I still don't feel safe. If I have contact with anyone it is outdoors. If it has to be indoors every window is open.
All I worry about, truly, is the government attempting to force things on others. If everyone in the world got the vaccine of their own free will, that would be amazing, but people should still be free to choose, no matter their reasoning.
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tande33
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#11
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
It would be coercion if the government said "you won't get any medical treatment if you don't have the vaccine", or "you don't get to go in a cafe, go on holiday, go in a bar, etc, if you haven't got a vaccine".
All I worry about, truly, is the government attempting to force things on others. If everyone in the world got the vaccine of their own free will, that would be amazing, but people should still be free to choose, no matter their reasoning.
It would be coercion if the government said "you won't get any medical treatment if you don't have the vaccine", or "you don't get to go in a cafe, go on holiday, go in a bar, etc, if you haven't got a vaccine".
All I worry about, truly, is the government attempting to force things on others. If everyone in the world got the vaccine of their own free will, that would be amazing, but people should still be free to choose, no matter their reasoning.
I disagree with the they shouldn't get medical care if you don't get it, however for restaurants, bars and holidays its totally understandable.
By not vaccinating you are actually encouraging (or forcing the governments hand) the government to enforce more lockdowns and mask mandates which are more severe and actually have way worse side effects than some of the most effective vaccines ever made.
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StriderHort
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#12
(Original post by BFrench501)
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet.
Look at people like Lewis Hamilton who have had Covid and struggle to this day to recover. Yet he is one of the fittest people on the planet.
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tande33
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#13
(Original post by StriderHort)
Isn't he a car driver? I'm not saying he's not in shape, but one of the fittest on the planet is taking the mick surely?
Isn't he a car driver? I'm not saying he's not in shape, but one of the fittest on the planet is taking the mick surely?
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Don'tAskMe
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#14
(Original post by tande33)
In this case the coercion would be justified, just like how it is illegal to play on your smartphone whilst driving, a law I would hope we all believe to have valid reason behind it.
I disagree with the they shouldn't get medical care if you don't get it, however for restaurants, bars and holidays its totally understandable.
By not vaccinating you are actually encouraging (or forcing the governments hand) the government to enforce more lockdowns and mask mandates which are more severe and actually have way worse side effects than some of the most effective vaccines ever made.
In this case the coercion would be justified, just like how it is illegal to play on your smartphone whilst driving, a law I would hope we all believe to have valid reason behind it.
I disagree with the they shouldn't get medical care if you don't get it, however for restaurants, bars and holidays its totally understandable.
By not vaccinating you are actually encouraging (or forcing the governments hand) the government to enforce more lockdowns and mask mandates which are more severe and actually have way worse side effects than some of the most effective vaccines ever made.
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tande33
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#15
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
Texting whilst driving is a threat to the general public. It’s my understanding that the vaccine is to protect only yourself as you can still get COVID and pass it on even if you have had the vaccine. Therefore, it still doesn’t make sense to coerce the general public to have something that, ultimately, only benefits yourself… or am I wrong about the vaccine… I don’t know.
Texting whilst driving is a threat to the general public. It’s my understanding that the vaccine is to protect only yourself as you can still get COVID and pass it on even if you have had the vaccine. Therefore, it still doesn’t make sense to coerce the general public to have something that, ultimately, only benefits yourself… or am I wrong about the vaccine… I don’t know.
And my personal feelings are that in even there is only a slight chance this is true (potentially it may not be so effective at this with the delta variant, its more easily spread in general), the vaccine is so worth the potential return to a more normal life.
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#16
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
Texting whilst driving is a threat to the general public. It’s my understanding that the vaccine is to protect only yourself as you can still get COVID and pass it on even if you have had the vaccine. Therefore, it still doesn’t make sense to coerce the general public to have something that, ultimately, only benefits yourself… or am I wrong about the vaccine… I don’t know.
Texting whilst driving is a threat to the general public. It’s my understanding that the vaccine is to protect only yourself as you can still get COVID and pass it on even if you have had the vaccine. Therefore, it still doesn’t make sense to coerce the general public to have something that, ultimately, only benefits yourself… or am I wrong about the vaccine… I don’t know.
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Plagioclase
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#17
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
Are you suggesting the same people who pay for the NHS don't get treated by the NHS. Denying people medical treatment just because they wanted to exercise their bodily autonomy is a really sick and twisted thing to suggest.
Are you suggesting the same people who pay for the NHS don't get treated by the NHS. Denying people medical treatment just because they wanted to exercise their bodily autonomy is a really sick and twisted thing to suggest.
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Don'tAskMe
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#18
(Original post by Plagioclase)
What kind of an argument is this? This is like arguing you should be allowed to dump trash in the countryside because your taxes pay for the Environment Agency, or that you should be allowed to get away with committing crimes because your taxes pay for the criminal justice system. The fact that you pay taxes doesn't mean you get a free pass to harm society.
What kind of an argument is this? This is like arguing you should be allowed to dump trash in the countryside because your taxes pay for the Environment Agency, or that you should be allowed to get away with committing crimes because your taxes pay for the criminal justice system. The fact that you pay taxes doesn't mean you get a free pass to harm society.
Again, I’m on neither side. I’m simply trying to argue that dividing our society like this is so dangerous and wrong. This is all leading to major division in this country and it’s an awful thing to witness.
I am no longer willing to argue with people that suggest that refusing people medical treatment is the right thing to do, because if that’s what you think and you’re willing to argue that it’s right, then nothing I can say will change your mind. I just hope, again, that in the future you're not on the receiving end of a suggestion like that.
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tande33
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#19
(Original post by Don'tAskMe)
That’s a ridiculous comparison. Medical treatment is a human right. Are you instead suggesting we strip specific members of society of basic human rights? Seriously, what is next?
Again, I’m on neither side. I’m simply trying to argue that dividing our society like this is so dangerous and wrong. This is all leading to major division in this country and it’s an awful thing to witness.
I am no longer willing to argue with people that suggest that refusing people medical treatment is the right thing to do, because if that’s what you think and you’re willing to argue that it’s right, then nothing I can say will change your mind. I just hope, again, that in the future you're not on the receiving end of a suggestion like that.
That’s a ridiculous comparison. Medical treatment is a human right. Are you instead suggesting we strip specific members of society of basic human rights? Seriously, what is next?
Again, I’m on neither side. I’m simply trying to argue that dividing our society like this is so dangerous and wrong. This is all leading to major division in this country and it’s an awful thing to witness.
I am no longer willing to argue with people that suggest that refusing people medical treatment is the right thing to do, because if that’s what you think and you’re willing to argue that it’s right, then nothing I can say will change your mind. I just hope, again, that in the future you're not on the receiving end of a suggestion like that.
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NJA
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#20
I know a number of adverse reactions have been recorded after taking the vaccine but this is partly due to the administration of the vaccine not the vacc itself.
What I mean is (1) some administrators have not aspirated whereby you make sure the vaccine is going into a muscle not a vein and (2) in the early days some people were given the vaxx too soon after having at covid And their immune system overloaded.
What I mean is (1) some administrators have not aspirated whereby you make sure the vaccine is going into a muscle not a vein and (2) in the early days some people were given the vaxx too soon after having at covid And their immune system overloaded.
Last edited by NJA; 9 months ago
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