Birmingham A100 Selection Process

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Megathreads
(Please read the first post, before then posting any further questions you have within that thread.)
The "Which Medical School Should I Apply To?" Uberthread
The Ultimate 'Am I Good Enough For Medicine?' Angst Thread
Medicine A-Level subjects queries
Work Experience and Voluntary Work

2023 Applicants:
Official Undergraduate Medicine 2023 Entry
Graduate Entry Medicine 2023 Entry
Medicine 2023 entry for resit / retake / gap year applicants
A100 Medicine for International Students 2023 Entry
Medicine Interview discussion 2023 Entry
2023 entry A100 / A101 Medicine fastest and slowest offer senders
Index of Individual Medical School Applicants' threads 2023 Entry

2024 Applicants :
Official Undergraduate Medicine 2024 Entry
Graduate Entry Medicine 2024 Entry
GAMSAT 2024 / 2025 entry discussions megathread
UCAT 2024 Entry Discussions Megathread

Other application years:
Graduate Entry Medicine 2025 Entry
Official Undergraduate Medicine 2025 Entry

Useful Articles:
GCSE Requirements for Medicine
Everything you need to know about the BMAT
Work Experience as a Graduate or Mature student
Medicine Personal Statement Advice
Medicine Personal Statement Advice (Graduate Entry)
Interview Frequently Asked Questions
MMI Medicine Interview Tips
What to do after an unsuccessful first application

If your query is answered by one of the Megathreads or articles linked above, and you would like us to close this thread for you, please reply to this thread with just the words "thank you". A member of our team will then get it locked.

Reply 2

Original post by VilasL06

Hi, can someone explain how Birmingham actually use UCAT scores as part of their selection process for medicine? I get how they score GCSEs and how they use contextual data, but I don't understand the UCAT part. On their website there is a table showing their UCAT deciles for 2021, but shouldn't they be updated to last year's? Or do they use the national deciles? Someone pls help explain, thanks

As has been explained elsewhere, Birmingham use the deciles of their own applicants.
They give the information on their website "Your total UCAT score from the four subtests (i.e. excluding the band result for the Situational Judgment Test, SJT), will be ranked among those for all applicants. The scores will be segregated into deciles and we will allocate our own score to each decile."
They make no claim about the table they have published, other than "For guidance, the national decile ranges for tests taken in 2021 are as follows (converted to a 0 – 4.0 scale)" so they do not necessarily bear any resemblance to the deciles Birmingham use, which when they used to publish them, were much higher than the official ones

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 3

Shslini

Thank you- this is what has been confusing me and I think you may have answered my question re how they use deciles but am confused about this: So on their applications stats for 2022/23 the min ucat score interviewed for a non contextual applicant was 2670 so do we assume that they classed 2670 approx as 10 th decile for that year as if someone had max gcse points their score would be 4.5 and the min score invited to interview was 8.125( needing an additional 3.625 points and 9 th decile gives you 3.555 points) so for a non contextual one would need to be in the 10 th decile to be considered for interview? Any advice is appreciated as I am debating whether to apply there with 2870 Band 2- would i get an interview or not with no contextual factors?

QUOTE=GANFYD;98811162]As has been explained elsewhere, Birmingham use the deciles of their own applicants.
They give the information on their website "Your total UCAT score from the four subtests (i.e. excluding the band result for the Situational Judgment Test, SJT), will be ranked among those for all applicants. The scores will be segregated into deciles and we will allocate our own score to each decile."

They make no claim about the table they have published, other than "For guidance, the national decile ranges for tests taken in 2021 are as follows (converted to a 0 – 4.0 scale)" so they do not necessarily bear any resemblance to the deciles Birmingham use, which when they used to publish them, were much higher than the official ones

Reply 4

Original post by Shslini

Thank you- this is what has been confusing me and I think you may have answered my question re how they use deciles but am confused about this: So on their applications stats for 2022/23 the min ucat score interviewed for a non contextual applicant was 2670 so do we assume that they classed 2670 approx as 10 th decile for that year as if someone had max gcse points their score would be 4.5 and the min score invited to interview was 8.125( needing an additional 3.625 points and 9 th decile gives you 3.555 points) so for a non contextual one would need to be in the 10 th decile to be considered for interview? Any advice is appreciated as I am debating whether to apply there with 2870 Band 2- would i get an interview or not with no contextual factors?

QUOTE=GANFYD;98811162]As has been explained elsewhere, Birmingham use the deciles of their own applicants.
They give the information on their website "Your total UCAT score from the four subtests (i.e. excluding the band result for the Situational Judgment Test, SJT), will be ranked among those for all applicants. The scores will be segregated into deciles and we will allocate our own score to each decile."

They make no claim about the table they have published, other than "For guidance, the national decile ranges for tests taken in 2021 are as follows (converted to a 0 – 4.0 scale)" so they do not necessarily bear any resemblance to the deciles Birmingham use, which when they used to publish them, were much higher than the official ones

I would be very surprised of 2670 was top decile, given it has been >2900 back in the years they used to publish it.
There are lots of reasons for a "minimum UCAT score" possibly involving ExCircs, notes added to UCAT, etc and there is certainly lots of evidence on the threads of people with higher UCATs not being shortlisted

Reply 5

GGIN

13

In addition to GANFYDs points.
Yes, I seem to remember reading on here at one point (a year or two ago) that if you were non contextual you had to have full GCSEs and top UCAT, because the contextual points leapfrogged over the top to a great extent. I think they have adjusted their weighting slightly since then which has reduced this effect.

Look at the published interim deciles and score yourself for that decile and the one below. Are you comfortable applying with both ? How comfortably are you in that decile.

NB, yes, I know the final deciles will likely be lower, but the birm deciles are gen slightly higher than the UCAT deciles, so interim is a possible proxy.

At the end of the day, it is a risk, but so is everywhere because you don't know who you will be upagainst in terms of applicants. All you can do is make logical and strategic choices on the basis of the info you have.

Good luck.

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 6

Original post by GGIN

In addition to GANFYDs points.
Yes, I seem to remember reading on here at one point (a year or two ago) that if you were non contextual you had to have full GCSEs and top UCAT, because the contextual points leapfrogged over the top to a great extent. I think they have adjusted their weighting slightly since then which has reduced this effect.

Look at the published interim deciles and score yourself for that decile and the one below. Are you comfortable applying with both ? How comfortably are you in that decile.

NB, yes, I know the final deciles will likely be lower, but the birm deciles are gen slightly higher than the UCAT deciles, so interim is a possible proxy.

At the end of the day, it is a risk, but so is everywhere because you don't know who you will be upagainst in terms of applicants. All you can do is make logical and strategic choices on the basis of the info you have.

Good luck.

When Birmingham used to publish their own deciles, they were usually 60-90 points higher than the corresponding official decile

Reply 7

VilasL06

OP

12

Original post by GANFYD

When Birmingham used to publish their own deciles, they were usually 60-90 points higher than the corresponding official decile

Hi, i got a score of 2630 Band 1, which is equivalent to 6th decile according to the interim deciles (2.222). Do you think I will get 6th decile for Bham, or 5th decile? I have 4.5 for GCSE and 1.2 for contextual. Will I be over the cutoff next year?

Reply 8

Original post by VilasL06

Hi, i got a score of 2630 Band 1, which is equivalent to 6th decile according to the interim deciles (2.222). Do you think I will get 6th decile for Bham, or 5th decile? I have 4.5 for GCSE and 1.2 for contextual. Will I be over the cutoff next year?

I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know!
2630 was just into the 6th decile on Birmingham's figures for a few years ago, but deciles/cut offs amongst applicants seem to have gone up most places since then.
Cut off has been around the equivalent of 8 or over for many years at Birmingham, but I do not know what it will be this year. Things may be a bit clearer when they publish their 2023 entry stats, which hopefully they will do soon

Reply 9

VilasL06

OP

12

Original post by GANFYD

I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know!
2630 was just into the 6th decile on Birmingham's figures for a few years ago, but deciles/cut offs amongst applicants seem to have gone up most places since then.
Cut off has been around the equivalent of 8 or over for many years at Birmingham, but I do not know what it will be this year. Things may be a bit clearer when they publish their 2023 entry stats, which hopefully they will do soon

They did already - it says 8.1 for non-contextual and 8.0 for contextual. That's why I wanted to ask you whether you think it would go down (because there was a huge jump from 7.3 to 8.0 for contextual)

Reply 10

Original post by VilasL06

They did already - it says 8.1 for non-contextual and 8.0 for contextual. That's why I wanted to ask you whether you think it would go down (because there was a huge jump from 7.3 to 8.0 for contextual)

The way Birmingham allocate contextual points means the cut off should be the same, as allowances have already been made in scoring.
We pointed this out 2 years ago, and they amended the scores to be the same, but then have continued to post different cut offs - which makes no sense whatsoever, so I would be questioning this with them, if it applied to me.
As Birmingham score 8s and 9s the same, I do not expect much, if any, drop in scoring, as you can see from their stats that the median GCSE score has been really high for years

Reply 11

RosaPonselle

Generally try not to jump into these as I have to watch the NDA :biggrin:

Having said that the stats for this year are here

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/documents/college-mds/medical-school/mbchb-admissions-statistics-sept-2023.pdf

Original post by GANFYD

The way Birmingham allocate contextual points means the cut off should be the same, as allowances have already been made in scoring.
We pointed this out 2 years ago, and they amended the scores to be the same, but then have continued to post different cut offs - which makes no sense whatsoever, so I would be questioning this with them, if it applied to me.

Actually it's quite possible to have two cut offs. They invite x number of candidate to interview and they simply quote the lowest score of the last contextual and non-contextual candidate from those invited. It's close enough that there isn't much of a practicable difference but there is a difference unless the both the last contextual and non-contextual had the same score.

Original post by Shslini

Thank you- this is what has been confusing me and I think you may have answered my question re how they use deciles but am confused about this: So on their applications stats for 2022/23 the min ucat score interviewed for a non contextual applicant was 2670 so do we assume that they classed 2670 approx as 10 th decile for that year as if someone had max gcse points their score would be 4.5 and the min score invited to interview was 8.125( needing an additional 3.625 points and 9 th decile gives you 3.555 points) so for a non contextual one would need to be in the 10 th decile to be considered for interview? Any advice is appreciated as I am debating whether to apply there with 2870 Band 2- would i get an interview or not with no contextual factors?

Not quite. Your logic is wrong here. I suggest you reread the admissions data for 2023. You're on the right lines but I don't see how you can conclude that 2670 = 10th decile.

Reply 12

Justapapa

Original post by RosaPonselle

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/documents/college-mds/medical-school/mbchb-admissions-statistics-sept-2023.pdf

Actually it's quite possible to have two cut offs. They invite x number of candidate to interview and they simply quote the lowest score of the last contextual and non-contextual candidate from those invited. It's close enough that there isn't much of a practicable difference but there is a difference unless the both the last contextual and non-contextual had the same score.

Can see this (ie it's a counting issue and it's the last marginal score to last interview slot, irrespective of category) but for 21/22 there is a big gap in the minimum score for contextual and standard that looks odd (could be outlier for some reason?)

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 13

Original post by RosaPonselle

Actually it's quite possible to have two cut offs. They invite x number of candidate to interview and they simply quote the lowest score of the last contextual and non-contextual candidate from those invited. It's close enough that there isn't much of a practicable difference but there is a difference unless the both the last contextual and non-contextual had the same score.

Possible, but completely negates the point of "levelling the field" by adding points on at the scoring stage for contextual applicants if you then also give them a different cut off.
Birmingham used to advertise that they reserved 20% of their interview slots for contextual applicants, and hence used a count back method, but then stated they were stopping this and giving those who were disadvantaged extra points at the scoring stage "Consideration of contextual information is not new but from 2020/21 we have incorporated the contextual element into the algorithm used to score all applicants, instead of setting aside interview places for contextual applicants." So a separate cut off gives a double whammy advantage to contextual applicants, if that cut off is lower.
Nowhere else that gives extra points to WP applicants at the scoring stage also uses a separate cut off - it is usually either one or the other, as if there is a certain number of places set aside for WP flags, they are cohorted separately. Birmingham have stated they are not doing that and have incorporated contextual points into the algorithm, so then giving a different cut off defeats the point, surely?
And for 2023 entry, it was close, but the year before it equated to about a grade different GCSE in the extra subjects scored. With the way the scoring algorithm works, there are going to be lots of people on the same score, particularly around the cut off, so how are those with contextual applications always needing a lower score? Statistically, you would expect they would fall at the same point, when all relevant information has been scored before the cut off is set and you are selecting >1000 people with very defined parameters to work out that score.

Reply 14

GGIN

13

Original post by RosaPonselle

Generally try not to jump into these as I have to watch the NDA :biggrin:

Having said that the stats for this year are here

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/documents/college-mds/medical-school/mbchb-admissions-statistics-sept-2023.pdf

Actually it's quite possible to have two cut offs. They invite x number of candidate to interview and they simply quote the lowest score of the last contextual and non-contextual candidate from those invited. It's close enough that there isn't much of a practicable difference but there is a difference unless the both the last contextual and non-contextual had the same score.

Not quite. Your logic is wrong here. I suggest you reread the admissions data for 2023. You're on the right lines but I don't see how you can conclude that 2670 = 10th decile.

Thank you !

Reply 15

Shslini

Original post by RosaPonselle

Generally try not to jump into these as I have to watch the NDA :biggrin:

Having said that the stats for this year are here

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/documents/college-mds/medical-school/mbchb-admissions-statistics-sept-2023.pdf

Actually it's quite possible to have two cut offs. They invite x number of candidate to interview and they simply quote the lowest score of the last contextual and non-contextual candidate from those invited. It's close enough that there isn't much of a practicable difference but there is a difference unless the both the last contextual and non-contextual had the same score.

Not quite. Your logic is wrong here. I suggest you reread the admissions data for 2023. You're on the right lines but I don't see how you can conclude that 2670 = 10th decile.

I agree not 10 th decile but I was trying to work out how the score of 8.125 was achieved with a 2670 ucat? 22 points for Gcse gives a score of 4.125 and then to get 8.125 you need another 4 points for a non contextual so that is where 4 points equated 2670 score but I agree that does not seem right so it has to be another combination? Even with maximum Gcses ie 4.5 points one would need a score of 3.625 for ucat To add up to 8.125 and there is not an option for a direct conversion to 3.625 on their website. Below 4 the next score is 3.556 and that does not add up as non contextuals do not get any other extra points? I hope my Maths is making sense? Unless there is another combination I have not thought of?

Reply 16

Justapapa

Original post by Shslini

I agree not 10 th decile but I was trying to work out how the score of 8.125 was achieved with a 2670 ucat? 22 points for Gcse gives a score of 4.125 and then to get 8.125 you need another 4 points for a non contextual so that is where 4 points equated 2670 score but I agree that does not seem right so it has to be another combination? Even with maximum Gcses ie 4.5 points one would need a score of 3.625 for ucat To add up to 8.125 and there is not an option for a direct conversion to 3.625 on their website. Below 4 the next score is 3.556 and that does not add up as non contextuals do not get any other extra points? I hope my Maths is making sense? Unless there is another combination I have not thought of?

Full ucat and 22/24 gcse? So had to be in their top decile if no contextual points. 2670 looks spurious I agree

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 17

Original post by Shslini

I agree not 10 th decile but I was trying to work out how the score of 8.125 was achieved with a 2670 ucat? 22 points for Gcse gives a score of 4.125 and then to get 8.125 you need another 4 points for a non contextual so that is where 4 points equated 2670 score but I agree that does not seem right so it has to be another combination? Even with maximum Gcses ie 4.5 points one would need a score of 3.625 for ucat To add up to 8.125 and there is not an option for a direct conversion to 3.625 on their website. Below 4 the next score is 3.556 and that does not add up as non contextuals do not get any other extra points? I hope my Maths is making sense? Unless there is another combination I have not thought of?

Birmingham's published data does not make any sense.
You will get a far better idea from going back through the threads and working out the scores of those recieving an offer, as like you say - it is not possible for the numbers they give to add up, as either full GCSE marks (4.5) plus 9th decile UCAT 3.556, which is a total of 8.056, or dropping one grade on GCSE (4.125) plus top UCAT points (4) which would mean 2670 was top decile - which nobody thinks is likely and did not fit in with what was on the threads. And even RosaPonselle is saying 2670 was not top decile.....
They are just simply stating the lowest UCAT to get an interview, with no caveat that it is likely someone with ExCircs or special consideration from UCAT. We would like to think they are not deliberately trying to mislead.......

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 18

Shslini

Original post by Justapapa

Full ucat and 22/24 gcse?

Agree but the person with 2670 which is the min score they interviewed for non contextual surely would not have score full points for ucat as the only way you can score full points for ucat is being in the 10 th decile which as someone pointed out earlier cannot be right? Hence my original question about 2670 scoring 4 points?

Reply 19

Justapapa