Feminist Frequency

So it's ok to threaten to rape or murder someone as long as it's only a joke? Christ Alive. She did have a genuine misogynistic backlash against her. She was hounded for simply proposing a video series talking about the portrayal of women in video games, focusing on the fact that she's a woman. People on this thread are saying things like "if you don't like the games, don't play them", yet these "neckbeards" wanted to were trying to get it shut down because they didn't like the idea. Someone even made a game about punchng her on the basis that she'd scammed people out of their money. They may not have taken it seriously, but it shouldn't be ignored.

The abstract of her thesis is two paragraphs long on the second page in to her essay and comes before the table of contents. The passage I quoted is from the top of page 9, within the introduction and comes just before the chapter opening of "Feminist Theory and Visual Culture". You sir, are a lying sycophant.

Two points:
1. Why should female characters only have to fall within the one archetype she finds morally acceptable? What mandate is there for all characterisations to become mono-cultural?

2. She argues that strength and dominant personalities are not traits exclusive to males in her videos, but in her thesis claims that females that are 'strong' or dominant are just being males or donning a male costume. If you can't see that as a contradiction, you're a sociopath.

...A lying sycophant and a sociopath. Right. You know that paper hasn't been online on her site for a while so I was going from memory. Pretty honest mistake, really. But whatever. Feel free to continue being ridiculously dramatic as usual but I'm really not interested in debating someone like that, sorry.

Well if you're going to fabricate nonsense in the hope that I wasn't using an actual reference source and thereby defeat my point, I'm going to call you out on it. If that's your level of debate is so debilitatingly childish and flawed that you'd try to get away with making stuff up under the guise that "er, I thought it was in the abstract despite not knowing er..yeah" then you're the one with the problem.

I have no interest in debating a spineless, misinformed, sycophant like you.

Wow.

So it's ok to threaten to rape or murder someone as long as it's only a joke? Christ Alive.

She did have a genuine misogynistic backlash against her. She was hounded for simply proposing a video series talking about the portrayal of women in video games, focusing on the fact that she's a woman. People on this thread are saying things like "if you don't like the games, don't play them", yet these "neckbeards" wanted to were trying to get it shut down because they didn't like the idea.

someone even made a game about punchng her on the basis that she'd scammed people out of their money.

If I am so 'butt ugly' and 'out of shape' how would you explain constant cat calling, threats of rape, and groping?
EDIT: I live in a really horrible place. I realise that the threats aren't serious most of the time and are made to just make me feel uncomfortable.

That wasn't my point at all. ArtGoblin pointed out that there had been a violent backlash against her ideas, as if to say "look at all the rampant misogyny". My point was that there is no rampant misogyny, it's just teenagers on the internet who don't actually hold misogynistic attitudes, saying things they would never say in real life.

What's actually wrong with this? That's not misogyny, it's being against lying scamming scumbags.

IMO, women have the most to be modest about. A womans body is more sexually powerful, but instead of wearing modest clothes, they wear the tightest things on earth.

And then they have the audacity to say " i'm a strong , independent liberated woman who need no man".

And how is that in any way relevant to this thread?

Except she is advocating against perfectly acceptable tastes in a way that promotes the interest of one set of people over another. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with her preference for content in which female characters are not sexualised but I find her implication that other people’s viewing preferences are somehow a problem or in any way afflict her frankly, authoritarian. She’s instigating the notion that other people’s choices in any way affect her, or others which they do not and it’s as draconian as conservative theists arguing that the presence of gay characters in shows like Will and Grace are a problem for a society. I draw a line when people start fear-mongering on the basis that things that don’t affect them, do.

And she has no moral license to lambast the personal expression of other people’s sexuality. Indeed, there are many an anti-censorship feminist who’d find her regressive stance repugnant due to its policing overtones. If she attacks an individual’s freedom of expression, she is attacking that person themselves. The ‘attitude’ you claim she is advocating against is little more than that of being a healthy, reproductive individual and her choice to lambast people who don’t fit within what she deems personally acceptable is regressive and belongs nowhere in a twenty-first century democracy like ours.

If you look at the sentence you’re actually quoting me on, you’ll see I didn’t actually claim what you say I did here. What I did point out is that reasonable people should be able to express themselves without fear of retribution from people that claim that their choice to do so is somehow ‘oppressive’ to them.

Straw man. Your analogy doesn't work because I'm not implying that we should be allowed to do things that are currently illegal.

Here’s a more accurate analogy:

“I’m not attacking gay people, it’s just that as a Christian, seeing a gay couple on television is offensive to my tastes. It’s a problem with society that gay people might want to have their tastes present in media”.

What Sarkeesian seems to abhor is the legitimate expression of self and I just can’t stand in line with authoritarianism like that. Oddly enough, I’m not a huge fan of games with overtly sexualised female characters simply because I think it distracts from good gameplay. That’s why I spend so much time playing racing games more than any other genre. What I find unreasonable is the notion that anybody has a moral license to police what others should or should not like provided they are legitimate and that’s why I equally abhor theistic fundamentalists who believe they have the moral impetus to condemn people for watching pornography.

Authoritarianism like the one you promote has no place in our society. You can either choose not to watch it, or get out of Europe to somewhere suitable.

This media perpetuates nothing but the legitimate expression of self which people of in all of the spectrum have a right to participate in. If people like Sarkeesian wish to see games in a different way, I wish them all the best of luck and to be honest, I’d probably pick it up and play it. But I won’t stand by and watch people from one side of the spectrum try to de-legitimise the freedom of expression of the other side. It’s not on.

And I stand by my comment that by attacking and demonising one’s legitimate choice of expression, you are attacking the person themselves; “I'm not attacking gay people, I just find their preference for people of the same sex and its proliferation in our media to be a problematic attitude”

Of course she can’t “command” anyone to do something, but what she can and has done is launch a multi-thousand dollar campaign to character assassinate people’s choice to express themselves in a way she deems unacceptable whilst simultaneously exclaiming that any deviation from her twisted norm is a form of misogyny.

The root of why I’ve chosen to argue against you is because your beliefs run counter to the philosophy that our gaming industry is built on; the right to legitimate freedom of expression.

As it goes I'm pretty ambivalent when it comes to gender stereotypes, but in any case I abhor people who use the excuse that other people’s freedom of expression inhibits them. I am not inhibited or affected by women’s choice to buy glossy magazines and it would be authoritarian of me to claim it did. They have a freedom to express themselves without fear of being lambasted for a perfectly reasonable choice.

The argument that you believe in is the same as that used on the right and far right to justify taking away the rights of gay people under the guise that their choices in any way affect them.

This is a fair point and I should have elaborated more on that so I apologise. What I should have said is that “nobody has a right to dictate what constitutes a pleasant society if it implicates the freedom of expression of another group”.

I’m not “discussing her conduct elsewhere”. I'm choosing to expose how the arguments used in her video are irrelevant as she has personally illustrated that regardless what happens vis-à-vis the problems exposed in her video, she will be unsatisfied. She spends a 20 minute video telling us how all female characters must be ‘strong’ and that deviation from that is misogynist – but then elsewhere claims that even if a female character was ‘strong’ it’s still symptomatic of the problems she perceives in the first place. It’s lose-lose, there is no pleasing her.

The notion that this is somehow irrelevant is like saying “that 47% thing is totally irrelevant to Romney’s economic policy because it happened elsewhere and is unfair to bring up”. What utter nonsense you've concocted.

Video games sexualize women. Look at Tomb Raider , and her 'over emphasized' features.

Men are less sexualised.

Men in video games are thought to be leaders, the stronger sex.

Women the sexual gender.

So if women want to be liberated, they may need to start changing perceptions by dressing modestly.

Well, you're in agreement with most feminists that women in videogames are sexualised and men are less so. It's mostly men who make these videogames because they have a mostly male audience. But I don't really see the need to make women as sexualised as they were in some of the old TR games, unless it's an erotic game or something. I'm not sure if you're complaining that Tomb Raider is sexualised or where you're going with that, really.

Women are not inherently any more sexual than men, that's just the way they are portrayed in the media.

As for your last statement, firstly, I think you'll find that the vast majority of women do "dress modestly" for whatever situation is appropriate. For example, when you go to the supermarket, are all the women there wearing skimpy dresses. No, they are not. Why should all women be judged on the actions of a few?

Secondly, why should women have to change their behaviour because of the actions of men?

I'll ask you again, how is that relevant to a discussion about videogames? Are you implying that women are sexualised in videogames because women dress "immodestly" in real life?

That wasn't my point at all. ArtGoblin pointed out that there had been a violent backlash against her ideas, as if to say "look at all the rampant misogyny". My point was that there is no rampant misogyny, it's just teenagers on the internet who don't actually hold misogynistic attitudes, saying things they would never say in real life.

What's actually wrong with this? That's not misogyny, it's being against lying scamming scumbags.

IMO, women have the most to be modest about. A womans body is more sexually powerful, but instead of wearing modest clothes, they wear the tightest things on earth.

And then they have the audacity to say " i'm a strong , independent liberated woman who need no man".

I agree with almost everything you say more or less apart from this. Women know they attract men sexually. It's inbuilt in men to be attracted to women. Thus, dressing promiscuously and showboating only attracts men.

In cultures where it's ok for women to dress like this, you see video games running rife , and pornography (which makes women sexualised and sex symbols everywhere)

+ One thing i do disagree with, is the notion that women aren't more sexual then men. I think they are. Throughout history, women have always been more sexually powerful, from their obvious superiority in beauty to bodily organs. I'm not saying men aren't either, but it's to a lesser degree than women, being the child bearers.

All in all, the actions of women builds onto the culture, which builds onto the media. It's all cyclical. Why aren't women plain naked on the news? Because society won't accept it. The same reason women with tight tops and mini-skirts aren't appreciated in Iran. Over there, women usually wear head-scarfs.

Societal norms feeds into the media, which has some influence in video games.

That's exactly what I mean. Women are portrayed as more sexual.

In a lot of video games and media, men are protrayed as strong and capable, and women are just objects to ****.

What exactly do you mean by "more sexually powerful"? It's much easier for the average man to overpower a woman sexually, as has been the case throughout history.

The only reason we see more overly sexual images of women is because women don't buy into sexual images of men as much.

So?

Actually in many video games you don't get woman who are just portrayed as objects to ****. If you had picked up a video game in your life you would understand this.

The male characters are also always the ones who experience violence and/or their characters usually result in death. Certainly it's far better to be portrayed as a object to **** than to be the ones who always gets killed or seriously hurt. I wonder why you didn't bring this up? Even in games where the female is the lead characters you hardly ever see violence being inflicted upon her. No one is complaining about this though and rightly so because video gamers don't give a **** about gender roles in video games, they want to be entertained.

Feminist logic not even once.

What do you even mean by this? Women have always held sexual power over men and in many they do abuse this in real life.

So what's the problem here?

No, my point was that standards have been degraded just to accommodate for women in these areas. Lives are at risk, this is not a place for social experiements to shut up a few moaning feminists. If you're stranded in a burning building and a firefighter starts opening the door to rescue you I can guarantee 99% of the population will be hoping for a male fireman. There's a reason that these professions are dominated by men and it's because men are the best accustomed for these jobs. Now if a woman can meet the male requirements she should be more than free to join.

Of course you make a few fallacious assumptions:

i). That the whole 50% of the population [ie all women] are interested in gaming when in reality a very, very small minority of women actually play games.

ii). That Feminist Frequency's points that women are reduced to sexual objects actually hold any merit [You're taking it as a gospel truth despite the fact that you've probably never played a video game in your life]

iii). That all women care about what role women play in video games [Or men for that matter].

That's not what it sounded like at all. What you said is "I'm tired of feminists butting in things which are dominated by men and things in which other women have no interest with" and provided the fire service, army etc as examples of this. Which made it sound like you think certain parts of society should be reserved for men despite some women's interests in this area.

That is what I had an issue with. Of course safety is always the priority in these situations, but I don't believe that these organisations would compromise safety in order to appease feminists.

The army still doesn't allow women on the front line even if they can reach the male requirements.

i) I said 'potential audience'. I know only a minority of women play games at the moment but perhaps that could be changed if games developers stopped portraying us in such a degrading way?

I would guess the Tomb Raider games have a bigger female audience because the protagonist is a woman - she is the hero, rather than existing as an object for the hero to rescue.

And why do you think The Sims 2 is the biggest selling PC game of all time?

ii) I didn't actually watch her video at all. I've played quite a few video games in my life, although granted that's only because I have a brother who owns them all so I've got into them through him. I think the only reason why men prefer gaming to women is that they're a natural extension to the toys they were brought up with - guns, cars, weapons etc. Women have never been taught to have an interest in these things so why would they spend hundreds of pounds on something they don't know they like?

iii) I agree that not many people don't care about women's representation in games, but it doesn't mean they are not affected by it.

It is not just video games where women and men are given polarised roles - it is in films, TV shows, books and other aspects of media.

As a film fan, I have found that the majority of films are about men, or the lead is shared between a man and a woman - it is rare that a film is about women.