Why I'm not Charlie and never will be
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Original post by Lady Comstock
Westboro Baptist Church is a little difficult as I support freedom of speech within the law, and they would not operate within English law.
Westboro Baptist Church is a little difficult as I support freedom of speech within the law, and they would not operate within English law.
I'm imagining the circumstance as happening under US jursidiction, it seems too exacting to expect a person to abide within his own country by the legal code of another jurisdiction, and that because it better suits your tastes. It's what some Muslims in GB are after, mind.
Original post by Sweet2000
Unfortunately, he was a racist and a xenophobe; people were quick to jump on the jesuischarlie bandwagon without researching his work.
I dunno how much research you've done but Charlie Hebdo[madaire] means Charlie Weekly. 'He' isn't a person and doesn't belong to the past tense.
Original post by cambio wechsel
I dunno how much research you've done but Charlie Hebdo[madaire] means Charlie Weekly. 'He' isn't a person and doesn't belong to the past tense.
I'm aware of that, je suis charlie was meant to personify what the newspaper stood for; so I'm following their same logic and saying that "he" stood for everything racist and xenophobic that we would otherwise love to hate.
Original post by IdeasForLife
The cartoons below are drawn by Charlie Hebdo, the french magazine which recently got attacked by gunmen.
It shows a muslim man using the Quran as (bullets going through it) with the caption "the Quran is s*** it doesn't stop bulllets" after the Rabaa massacre in Egypt. Over 1000 Egyptians were killed by their own military whilst peacefully protesting.
This is one of the reasons I am not charlie. I do not make fun of massacres.I am above that. If someone where to make fun of holocaust victims, they would be called quite a few bad names(and rightly so). It shouldn't be any different when people make fun of other atrocities.
The other cartoon shows, Mrs Taubira, a government minister, as a monkey simply because she is a black woman. I do not support racism, so yet again, I am not Charlie.
Just to add - I do not support the gunmen or anything of the like.
The images are in the spoiler, you may find them offensive, so I've given you the option whether you wish to view them or not.
It shows a muslim man using the Quran as (bullets going through it) with the caption "the Quran is s*** it doesn't stop bulllets" after the Rabaa massacre in Egypt. Over 1000 Egyptians were killed by their own military whilst peacefully protesting.
This is one of the reasons I am not charlie. I do not make fun of massacres.I am above that. If someone where to make fun of holocaust victims, they would be called quite a few bad names(and rightly so). It shouldn't be any different when people make fun of other atrocities.
The other cartoon shows, Mrs Taubira, a government minister, as a monkey simply because she is a black woman. I do not support racism, so yet again, I am not Charlie.
Just to add - I do not support the gunmen or anything of the like.
The images are in the spoiler, you may find them offensive, so I've given you the option whether you wish to view them or not.
Spoiler
I sort of agree with you. Everyone is entitled to free speech, but there has to be a compromise.
Original post by HeavyTeddy
Charlie Hebdo was a disgusting human being, to put it mildly, but still I don't support the killing of another just because they offended you. My issue with this entire situation is that the media are purporting this as something intrinsic in islamic culture; that is, that Muslims think it's acceptable to respond in such a way to mockery. Honestly, I disagree with that idea completely. I think we should categorize and understand the behaviour and motivation of the gunmen as exactly what it is, a horrible, irrational but completely understandable psychological (and human) response. When you mock something that holds sentimental value to someone, they become angry, and sadly some of them become violent. That sentimentality isn't restricted to religion nevermind exclusively to Islam or Muslims.
I dunno, just my 2p.
I dunno, just my 2p.
tl;dr I don't have a clue about what Charlie Hebdo actually was and I sympathise with the motives behind the Paris attack.
Ideasforlife shows his nescience towards satire, and in particular the cartoons he posted, in his quest to fish for reps. I expected nothing less.
it has been explained at length in this thread that the cartoons mock racism and mock the idea that your god might protect you. I wouldn't have bought a magazine like this, even if I lived in France, as it isn't my type of humour. But having read this discussion I can understand why so many French people are willing to say Je Suis Charlie. I think I am Evelyn (or should that be Ms Hall?) might get more support in Britain.
These murders - and lets name them honestly and not pander to extremists by saying anything else - have stirred up anti Muslim feelings because people are frightened. In Muslims countries you can legally be lashed and imprisoned or even beheaded for doing something considered to be insulting to Islam e.g. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/saudi-arabia-blogger-flogged-insulting-islam-20151911120952108.html As I understand it, the Quran does not set out any earthly punishment for insulting Islam but this is one of many additions to the religion. It means that Islam is seen to be fundamentally opposed to a basic Western belief. The cartoons didn't cause anti muslim feeling, but murders and floggings do. Even if these things happen in other countries when those countries claim it is part of their religious beliefs it causes unease.
British Imans who condemned as sinful and un-Islamic the killers of Alan Herring did much to defuse tensions then. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/alan-henning-british-muslim-leaders-unite-to-call-on-isis-to-release-hostage-9739047.html
and this message from French imans will do the same now http://news.yahoo.com/french-imams-rail-against-crazies-seized-religion-232602712.html
These murders - and lets name them honestly and not pander to extremists by saying anything else - have stirred up anti Muslim feelings because people are frightened. In Muslims countries you can legally be lashed and imprisoned or even beheaded for doing something considered to be insulting to Islam e.g. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/saudi-arabia-blogger-flogged-insulting-islam-20151911120952108.html As I understand it, the Quran does not set out any earthly punishment for insulting Islam but this is one of many additions to the religion. It means that Islam is seen to be fundamentally opposed to a basic Western belief. The cartoons didn't cause anti muslim feeling, but murders and floggings do. Even if these things happen in other countries when those countries claim it is part of their religious beliefs it causes unease.
British Imans who condemned as sinful and un-Islamic the killers of Alan Herring did much to defuse tensions then. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/alan-henning-british-muslim-leaders-unite-to-call-on-isis-to-release-hostage-9739047.html
and this message from French imans will do the same now http://news.yahoo.com/french-imams-rail-against-crazies-seized-religion-232602712.html
Original post by wellholathere
Right so we should not display political opinions? But it's okay to mock political opinions? Oh right yes. That's so much better.
Yes I know it wasn't only religion. I know the whole defense making people more tolerant with the critique. However, it's offensive to sensitive subjects and disrespectful. Nowadays respect is simply something we lack because "i have a right to tell you my opinion, don't judge me" or whatever. Now, if Charlie's allowed to use the freedom of speech defense for this, then you should be allowed to make fun of anything right? so the holocaust for example, it's okay to draw satirical cartoons mocking that? After all it only restricts our freedom of expression if we aren't allowed, right?
Yes I know it wasn't only religion. I know the whole defense making people more tolerant with the critique. However, it's offensive to sensitive subjects and disrespectful. Nowadays respect is simply something we lack because "i have a right to tell you my opinion, don't judge me" or whatever. Now, if Charlie's allowed to use the freedom of speech defense for this, then you should be allowed to make fun of anything right? so the holocaust for example, it's okay to draw satirical cartoons mocking that? After all it only restricts our freedom of expression if we aren't allowed, right?
Yes it's OK to mock political opinions, that's the whole point of free speech. The last bit is irrelevant as France is a secular republic, and therefore those things aren't allowed. Freedom of expression has never meant total and unbridled freedom.
Let's all get one thing straight here:
Charlie Hebdo was a lesser evil than Islam and the Muslim population.
Charlie Hebdo was a lesser evil than Islam and the Muslim population.
The Muslims who criticise and denounce free speech on the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attack are inadvertently (or perhaps knowingly) assisting the goals of extremists.
You just have to look at the western countries that are refusing to publish the Mohammed cartoons because of 'respect for religion,' or what is most plausible: fear. The BBC and most major US networks (CNN, Fox, CBS, ABS) have all said they will not show these cartoons. They are hereby conforming to Islamic blasphemy laws in non-Islamic countries.
Islamic terrorism is winning. Well done fellas.
You just have to look at the western countries that are refusing to publish the Mohammed cartoons because of 'respect for religion,' or what is most plausible: fear. The BBC and most major US networks (CNN, Fox, CBS, ABS) have all said they will not show these cartoons. They are hereby conforming to Islamic blasphemy laws in non-Islamic countries.
Islamic terrorism is winning. Well done fellas.
That's the thing about freedom of expression, they have the right to draw the most offensive things, you have right to tell them it's disgusting.
Original post by yo radical one
That's the thing about freedom of expression, they have the right to draw the most offensive things, you have right to tell them it's disgusting.
So why are racial slurs on the internet and irl punished, yet these cartoons are still allowed?
Inconsistency brah
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(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by IdeasForLife
The cartoons below are drawn by Charlie Hebdo, the french magazine which recently got attacked by gunmen.
It shows a muslim man using the Quran as (bullets going through it) with the caption "the Quran is **** it doesn't stop bulllets" after the Rabaa massacre in Egypt. Over 1000 Egyptians were killed by their own military whilst peacefully protesting.
This is one of the reasons I am not charlie. I do not make fun of massacres.I am above that. If someone where to make fun of holocaust victims, they would be called quite a few bad names(and rightly so). It shouldn't be any different when people make fun of other atrocities.
The other cartoon shows, Mrs Taubira, a government minister, as a monkey simply because she is a black woman. I do not support racism, so yet again, I am not Charlie.
Just to add - I do not support the gunmen or anything of the like.
The images are in the spoiler, you may find them offensive, so I've given you the option whether you wish to view them or not.
It shows a muslim man using the Quran as (bullets going through it) with the caption "the Quran is **** it doesn't stop bulllets" after the Rabaa massacre in Egypt. Over 1000 Egyptians were killed by their own military whilst peacefully protesting.
This is one of the reasons I am not charlie. I do not make fun of massacres.I am above that. If someone where to make fun of holocaust victims, they would be called quite a few bad names(and rightly so). It shouldn't be any different when people make fun of other atrocities.
The other cartoon shows, Mrs Taubira, a government minister, as a monkey simply because she is a black woman. I do not support racism, so yet again, I am not Charlie.
Just to add - I do not support the gunmen or anything of the like.
The images are in the spoiler, you may find them offensive, so I've given you the option whether you wish to view them or not.
Spoiler
I'm quite disappointed with this post, not because you're not Charlie (everyone has the right to an opinion), but because you've taken the cartoons you posted wildly out of context despite Muslims always complaining that non-muslims do the same when referencing the Quran. For example, it's already been explained several times on this thread how the monkey cartoon isn't actually racist in the context it was drawn in.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
I'm quite disappointed with this post, not because you're not Charlie (everyone has the right to an opinion), but because you've taken the cartoons you posted wildly out of context despite Muslims always complaining that non-muslims do the same when referencing the Quran. For example, it's already been explained several times on this thread how the monkey cartoon isn't actually racist in the context it was drawn in.
How would you defend the bullet one though
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Original post by Up quark
So why are racial slurs on the internet and irl punished, yet these cartoons are still allowed?
Inconsistency
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Inconsistency
Posted from TSR Mobile
France and the UK are different jurisdictions so have different laws.
Some countries have harassment laws, so you can publish something offensive, but if you walk up to a person you know will find it offensive and shout that thing in their face, then you are breaking the law.
I can use the word ******, but if I walk up to a Black person and shout ****** at him, I might be arrested.
In my opinion, there should be total unbridled freedom of expression, as is the case in the US, but no European country as far as I am aware has this.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Up quark
I remember seeing the explanation for that one a few pages back, I'm on my phone ATM but if you can't find it quote me back later and I'll explain.
Charlie Hebdo's team was composed of Marxists, antimilitarists, antiracists, trotskyists, anarchists, etc. They ideologically cannot be racist. Those who say the contrary have never read the paper. Their main goal is to be provocative towards bigotry, capitalism, politics... They use the discourse of their enemies to turn them into ridicule, so at first the cartoons look racist, homophobic, intolerant... but you need to have a good knowledge of French language and politics to understand the meaning. OP has neither of these.
It is also striking to see that Marine Le Pen said that "she is not Charlie" as well. It's touching to see Muslims and the National Front together.
Original post by Josb
Charlie Hebdo's team was composed of Marxists, antimilitarists, antiracists, trotskyists, anarchists, etc. They ideologically cannot be racist. Those who say the contrary have never read the paper. Their main goal is to be provocative towards bigotry, capitalism, politics... They use the discourse of their enemies to turn them into ridicule, so at first the cartoons look racist, homophobic, intolerant... but you need to have a good knowledge of French language and politics to understand the meaning. OP has neither of these.
It is also striking to see that Marine Le Pen said that "she is not Charlie" as well. It's touching to see Muslims and the National Front together.
Charlie Hebdo's team was composed of Marxists, antimilitarists, antiracists, trotskyists, anarchists, etc. They ideologically cannot be racist. Those who say the contrary have never read the paper. Their main goal is to be provocative towards bigotry, capitalism, politics... They use the discourse of their enemies to turn them into ridicule, so at first the cartoons look racist, homophobic, intolerant... but you need to have a good knowledge of French language and politics to understand the meaning. OP has neither of these.
It is also striking to see that Marine Le Pen said that "she is not Charlie" as well. It's touching to see Muslims and the National Front together.
Beyond the ideology called Islam, people like the original poster have probably never studied or even heard about such philosophies in order to begin to understand the context (so the OP is most likely ignorant as opposed to dishonest in grossly misrepresenting the cartoons). The bizarre over-emotional response to drawings seems to be the only driving factor in their reasoning here or lack thereof.
Similarly with right-wing fascists like the NF, their ignorance and emotional arguments drown out any rational discourse. You are right to link the two together as they have much in common, both seeking to undo centuries of progress in the persuit of liberty, in their own totalitarian ways.
Original post by alevels2k15
ISLAM DOES NOT JUSTIFY VIOLENCE! Those people have NOT been able to justify their acts of violence using the Holy Qur'an.
There are many muslims that are OPPOSING this act of violence commited by them! Why?... Because ISLAM does Not Justify violence.
Those people are wronging islam.
There are many muslims that are OPPOSING this act of violence commited by them! Why?... Because ISLAM does Not Justify violence.
Those people are wronging islam.
If islam is so pacifist then why are there so much any such violent parts of the Quran?
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