University is for the elite..

SlyPie

huh? In the US it takes 5 years of graduate school to get a PhD...after 4 years of undergrad.. is that what you meant or did you mean 9 years simply for PhD?

From what I heard, an average Ph.D. degree takes 7 years to get after getting an undergrad degree. There are large variations for different degrees though. Most get a Ph.D. in physics and math within 3-4 years, while a Ph.D. in History takes around 10 years (this is all after a Bachelors degree).

Reply 42

shady lane

Bismarck

From what I heard, an average Ph.D. degree takes 7 years to get after getting an undergrad degree. There are large variations for different degrees though. Most get a Ph.D. in physics and math within 3-4 years, while a Ph.D. in History takes around 10 years (this is all after a Bachelors degree).

I don't know any grad students who take longer than 5 years...obviously some do but not at my uni. It's up to the individual student really...if you feel like staying for 7 years then that's your issue. Most people take 4-5 years for a PhD. But...PhD students in the US work as teaching assistants as well. I don't know if it's the same in the UK. But most graduate students in the US have to teach.

Reply 43

shady lane

I don't know any grad students who take longer than 5 years...obviously some do but not at my uni. It's up to the individual student really...if you feel like staying for 7 years then that's your issue. Most people take 4-5 years for a PhD. But...PhD students in the US work as teaching assistants as well. I don't know if it's the same in the UK. But most graduate students in the US have to teach.

Stanford actually has a reputation for forcing students to get Ph.D. rather quickly. Good point about the teaching thing. As far as I know, grad students don't teach in British colleges. They also don't have to take classes for ~2 years, which they do in most American colleges.

Reply 44

zxczxc

11

The reason why people were able to get into the old polytechnics with a couple of Es was because back then Es were a tiny bit respectable: only the academically strong took A-Levels. Compare to now when all and sundrie do them, and grades below an A are unspectacular and not really too difficult to get.

Reply 45

ThePenguinMafia

foxo

Erm, Bill Gates got into Harvard (granted, he did drop out).

I don't really believe universities are for the "elite" nowadays. Anyone can get A's in school, and anyone can cram their life full of extra-curricular activities.

Anyone? Have you ever stopped to look at how stupid many people are?

Insofar as putting the correct answers down is the only prerequisite of high grades; yes anybody can get them. Not everybody is capable of the understanding required to put such answers down though. I saw a lot of people work their arse off for C's and D's in my chemistry class, and these people weren't stupid.

Reply 46

fleur-de-lis

As concerns Ph.Ds, Unis such as Oxford encourage their students to submit their Ph.Ds asap, which kind of makes sense when you think of the sky high fees. The downside is cramming 7-8 years of Ph.D into 3 years, which is so so tough! In Germany, however, they look at the quality of your research- and you'll probably get your Ph.D only by the end of 7-8 years because they want it to be the best.

Reply 47

fleur-de-lis

JohnStuartMill

Oxford and Cambridge don't allow you to work during term time but as they have such short terms students can generally get a part time job for the rest of the year.

The Uni does not encourage students working during term time, but colleges are very happy to have students helping them via conference teams or in the bar etc.

Reply 48

University should be for the elite, the intellectual elite. I have no problem discriminating for intelligence and aptitude based on achievement in academic assessment.

Reply 49

foxo

17

ThePenguinMafia

Anyone? Have you ever stopped to look at how stupid many people are?

Insofar as putting the correct answers down is the only prerequisite of high grades; yes anybody can get them. Not everybody is capable of the understanding required to put such answers down though. I saw a lot of people work their arse off for C's and D's in my chemistry class, and these people weren't stupid.

When 20% of people taking A Level's are getting A's, it's hardly elite. If you're highly motivated and of average intelligence, you can get an A.

Reply 50

foxo

When 20% of people taking A Level's are getting A's, it's hardly elite. If you're highly motivated and of average intelligence, you can get an A.

Quite, I was told that you meet more stupid people at university than anywhere else.

Reply 51

SamTheMan

17

Bismarck

Stanford actually has a reputation for forcing students to get Ph.D. rather quickly. Good point about the teaching thing. As far as I know, grad students don't teach in British colleges. They also don't have to take classes for ~2 years, which they do in most American colleges.

Students aren't divided into undergraduate/graduate in the UK but undergraduate/postgraduate students but that's just a question of terminology. Postgraduates comprise Masters students and PhD students, the former having to follow courses, the number of which depends on what kind of Masters degree they're doing: MA, MSc, MRes...

As for this whole debate on intelligence, it's widely accepted these days that intelligence isn't described in binary terms. You can't evaluate someone and come up with a result: intelligent/less intelligent. There are so many areas of intelligence that you can't come up with a simple result and as for IQ tests and associations like Mensa, they haven't been taken seriously since the 70s/80s. They were just a fad after WW2 but were quickly refuted by most experts for evaluating a tiny area of human intelligence. These days, intelligence is considered to even comprise social skills, hand-eye coordination and most importantly emotional intelligence (Daniel Goleman's bestseller Emotional Intelligence is worth the read). How is it intelligence, if you can calculate thousands of integrals, if your mind totally blocks in the presence of stress/other people... ?

Although, I doubt this is a general rule, you'll notice that anyone with considerable abilities in a certain "intelligence" area, will tend to lack in another.

Taking examples of films is never a good idea but Rainman (well since it's based on an actual person) is proof that you can have analytical abilities but totally lack any other intellectual abilities.

One of the most infamous hackers in the US had an IQ of 75 and lived with his Mum.

Reply 52

DenverDiva

Bismarck

Stanford actually has a reputation for forcing students to get Ph.D. rather quickly. Good point about the teaching thing. As far as I know, grad students don't teach in British colleges. They also don't have to take classes for ~2 years, which they do in most American colleges.

British PhDs are usually 3 years full-time, generally following a 1 year Masters level course (a.k.a. 1+3).

Post-grad students are often employed in British unis for teaching, particularly at first year level.

Reply 53

DenverDiva

British PhDs are usually 3 years full-time, generally following a 1 year Masters level course (a.k.a. 1+3).

Post-grad students are often employed in British unis for teaching, particularly at first year level.

Which universities? I'm going to LSE soon, and there isn't a single postgrad student teaching classes as far as I know.

SamTheMan

Students aren't divided into undergraduate/graduate in the UK but undergraduate/postgraduate students but that's just a question of terminology. Postgraduates comprise Masters students and PhD students, the former having to follow courses, the number of which depends on what kind of Masters degree they're doing: MA, MSc, MRes...

I was talking to an American, so I was using standard American terms. :smile:

Reply 54

Bismarck

Which universities? I'm going to LSE soon, and there isn't a single postgrad student teaching classes as far as I know.

Better there's tons of demonstrators and tutors, etc.

Reply 55

DenverDiva

Bismarck

Which universities? I'm going to LSE soon, and there isn't a single postgrad student teaching classes as far as I know.

Don't know about LSE but I do know other first rank unis which use post-grads. It can be advantageous for both the undergrads and pgs - the ugs get a tutor who can understand their unfamiliarity with the subject and the pgs get some cash and teaching experience which will help when they are looking for an academic job.

Reply 56

DenverDiva

Don't know about LSE but I do know other first rank unis which use post-grads. It can be advantageous for both the undergrads and pgs - the ugs get a tutor who can understand their unfamiliarity with the subject and the pgs get some cash and teaching experience which will help when they are looking for an academic job.

Or more correctly when they are trying desperately to find a way out of the hell-hole that is academia.

Reply 57

Elusive Moose

foxo

When 20% of people taking A Level's are getting A's, it's hardly elite. If you're highly motivated and of average intelligence, you can get an A.

What about people from state schools, where average A Level grades are around 3Cs? Does someone achieving an A not show anything for these people? I know of very few people who got even one A at AS level. Those who achieved them had worked hard, but I also believe that you cannot get an A if you do not naturally have a flare for the subject. You cannot teach someone to write outstanding essays, nor can you teach them to be able to absorb science naturally and automatically understand what they have been taught and despite a few exceptions it is these people who achieve A grades. Many people I know, who possess perhaps what could be classed as 'average intelligence' if not more so, worked exceptionally hard for their exams and came out with what are thought of as average grades; the Cs and Ds. If anyone of 'average intelligence' who works hard enough can achieve an A grade, then why do the average scores for many schools remain Cs?

On the subject of 'university is for the elite', I agree that those who are not academically inclined should be encouraged to do apprenticeships. It would be much more beneficial to them in the long run and for many, and possibly more enjoyable. In theory, universities being more accesible is a good thing as it encourages people who may have been put off by elitest attitudes to apply. Yet some people will not benefit at all from their degree and in this case, the Government should make other options seem both as (and more) attractive as universities and promote these instead of trying to drag 50% of the population through the system, many of whom will end up with nothing after graduating, except for £10,000 debts.

Reply 58

Dotty

SamTheMan is talking the most sense here. Getting straight A's is more to do with obsessive compulsive disorder than true intelligence. I knew a straight A student who went to University and got a 3rd. Funny really because some of those people who appear like they cant be arsed and get crap grades often has little to do with intellectual ability and more to do with dull and unstimulating material as these people are more likely to be creative, challenging the norm and often the movers and shakers in society unlike the anal play by the rules types. If anyone really thinks that intelligence can be standardized then explain how autistic savants who can have mathematical abilities beyond and PhD could ever wish for without any of the effort usually have an IQ lower than 70.
Dotty

Reply 59