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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Doctor as in the person who would do surgery on the wounded in a base? Or as in a medic on the frontlines? The latter, I'm not sure, they carry guns today do they? The first one, I wouldn't mind.
    They all carry side arms, be it a doc or a combat medical technician, they are allowed to under the laws of armed conflict to defend themselves and their patients and have been for decades.
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    (Original post by nonotrly)


    It is very saddening the ignorance so vehemently spouted bu the pro-armed forces, or pro-war. It seems a struggle for many to post without saying "you have no idea", "you're a liberal", "I'm not going to bother because what you've said is so stupid" etc. just because the view is different.


    Is that not exactly what you're doing to those who happen to disagree with you? You assume that all of us who do believe our servicemen are heroes, can't possibly have made that decision with any sort of rational judgement and are instead just repeating what the media are feeding us. :rolleyes:

    Also, 'pro-armed forces'? What's that exactly? And why does supporting the forces automatically mean we're supporting the war?

    I'm perfectly aware that some people view the armed forces as violent, stupid and all of the other words you used. I'm also aware - again - that such people have very little idea of what the forces actually do.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Doctor as in the person who would do surgery on the wounded in a base? Or as in a medic on the frontlines? The latter, I'm not sure, they carry guns today do they? The first one, I wouldn't mind.

    Genrally I don't like the british armed forces as a whole. Thats not to say I'm going to igrone you or be rude or something. That friend I was talking about has a civilain job in the army as well, but I still treat him the same as before. I was just brought up to be very anti....well everything that bares the union-jack in terms of politics and government forces. I'm just a product of my environment...don't hate me for it.
    haha, don't worry.....I'm not gonna hate you....I'm just interested

    doctor as in the person that does the operations etc. and isn't allowed to carry weapons

    hmm....I suppose your view is fair enough......as long as you aren't one of those scumbags that goes to homecoming parades and stuff.....
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    (Original post by Cybele)
    Is that not exactly what you're doing to those who happen to disagree with you? You assume that all of us who do believe our servicemen are heroes, can't possibly have made that decision with any sort of rational judgement and are instead just repeating what the media are feeding us. :rolleyes:

    Also, 'pro-armed forces'? What's that exactly? And why does supporting the forces automatically mean we're supporting the war?

    I'm perfectly aware that some people view the armed forces as violent, stupid and all of the other words you used. I'm also aware - again - that such people have very little idea of what the forces actually do.
    Like it or not, enthusiasm for the armed forces is largely a media invention. There is no logical reason why you would want to go and risk your life for a cause that isn't your own unless you falsely believe that it is your cause or you are simply seduced by the warrior lifestyle.
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    (Original post by infernalcradle)
    haha, don't worry.....I'm not gonna hate you....I'm just interested

    doctor as in the person that does the operations etc. and isn't allowed to carry weapons

    hmm....I suppose your view is fair enough......as long as you aren't one of those scumbags that goes to homecoming parades and stuff.....
    I assume you mean goes to the homecoming parades to protest etc??
    No, trust me the nearest home coming parade would be miles away, and even then I wouldn't be anywhere near it.

    I just live in a overwhelmingly nationalist part of Derry, give the country's, in particular this county's, history with the british army I'm sure you can see a reasonable justification for my views
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    (Original post by Cybele)
    Is that not exactly what you're doing to those who happen to disagree with you? You assume that all of us who do believe our servicemen are heroes, can't possibly have made that decision with any sort of rational judgement and are instead just repeating what the media are feeding us. :rolleyes:
    Interesting. You assume that I retort anyone who thinks a soldier is a hero with "the media told you". Very interesting, because you are only mentioning the media because you know that is what the news media says. However, this is not something I have been making a case of saying when writing a reply.

    Just as interesting as the multiple posts just saying "because they defend our country" or similar.

    Also, 'pro-armed forces'? What's that exactly? And why does supporting the forces automatically mean we're supporting the war?
    Again, I haven't said this.

    Plus, 'pro-armed forces' is shorter than 'pro-soldiers are automatically heroes'. No conspiracy.
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    (Original post by garethDT)
    Like it or not, enthusiasm for the armed forces is largely a media invention. There is no logical reason why you would want to go and risk your life for a cause that isn't your own unless you falsely believe that it is your cause or you are simply seduced by the warrior lifestyle.
    A media invention? Because God forbid people actually make their own judgements. :rolleyes: So patronising.
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    (Original post by Cybele)
    Then what does it take to be 'heroic' in your view? These men and women sent off to war zones know full well what they're risking in terms of their own safety - it surely takes a person of immense courage to be sent willingly, all the while spending months and months away from their family and home comforts, for a wage which doesn't equate to the tremendous job they do. That they're willing to put their lives on the line in the hope of bringing about peace in the long run is certainly a heroic trait in my eyes. It's just a shame there are ungrateful and ignorant individuals out there who have very little idea of what our Armed Forces actually do.
    Members of the Taliban came from all over the world to fight in Afghanistan, they are also a lot more likely to die than ISAF troops, are they heroes? If a soldier puts him/herself in danger to save someone's life then he/she is a hero. If they kill an innocent person then they obviously aren't. Aid workers in war zones such as Medicines sans frontiers are heroes, whereas for people in the armed forces who are equipped with body armor, machine guns and are often tasked with going abroad and seizing control of territory by force it depends entirely on the circumstances.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    I assume you mean goes to the homecoming parades to protest etc??
    No, trust me the nearest home coming parade would be miles away, and even then I wouldn't be anywhere near it.

    I just live in a overwhelmingly nationalist part of Derry, give the country's, in particular this county's, history with the british army I'm sure you can see a reasonable justification for my views
    good stuff.....cos they are truly scum.....

    no, I do fully understand now (I thought you were in england) why you would have that dislike and I wouldn't try to change that tbh....as its justified IMO
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    (Original post by garethDT)
    And I pity you for thinking that they are putting their lives on the line for the safety and wellbeing of the rest of us. They are not. They are putting their lives on the line because they are told to by people who use them for political gain and for profit. If they want to delude themselves that they are defending the British values of democracy, free speech and all that crap then good luck to them, it probably helps them cope with the stresses of the job they have to do, but it doesn't change the facts.
    Yes, because after all, we did go to war with germany in WW2 for "political gain and for profit". :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Cybele)
    A media invention? Because God forbid people actually make their own judgements. :rolleyes: So patronising.
    Do you think that many lads would have voluntarily gone to fight in the trenches in WW1 without the media propaganda?
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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    Yes, because after all, we did go to war with germany in WW2 for "political gain and for profit". :rolleyes:
    We were the aggressor in that war
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    (Original post by Cybele)
    A media invention? Because God forbid people actually make their own judgements. :rolleyes: So patronising.
    Being fair, someone who constantly uses :rolleyes: smilies in a debate is very patronising and it gives off a sense of 'superiority to the little ones'.
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    Calling all soldiers 'heroes' devalues the term. If I ran into a burning tank to rescue an injured comrade, I'd be pissed off in the extreme if he was then called a hero because he got injured - where does that leave me? 'hero + 1'?
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    I so agree, the other day I was on facebook and their was some idiot chavs who said things along the line of: "Yeah bruv i wana go army to, fite for our country and stop all the immagrants" I mean I feel bad lol.
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    (Original post by CJRyan)
    No. They are risking their lives for their country, and fighting a war for their country.

    Yes, of course there are some bad seeds in the Army, like there are in any groups, but this doesn't mean the majority of good soldiers don't deserve to be called heroes.
    No, they are risking their lives for something that they believe in..
    Stop using this argument.. you can use it for in the case of many more "bad seeds" as you call them.
    So if I'm a Nazi soldier and I personally believe that I need to save my country against the filthy jews and communists, does that make me a hero? the fact that I'm putting my life at risk for my country?
    what makes these two soldiers any different from one another? their different ideology? Yes maybe, but you can always argue that they share the same sense of determination and courage that can make both appear as heroes.
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    (Original post by nonotrly)
    Forget the 'news' media telling you, tell me why YOU think this.

    Someone grows up obsessed with guns, doesn't feel s/he has the intellegence to get a degree or a job, or s/he becomes a chav, and is automatically directed toward the army as their career. Why does that person then suddenly become a hero?

    If that person is a wifebeater, a bully, why do you blindly say that person is a hero?

    If George W Bush is evil, what does that make his soldiers? Heroes?

    If, to give a less complicated example, Britain invaded Latvia quite abruptly, how are the soldiers there 'defending our freedom'?

    If someone went to Afghanistan and was not called upon to do anything, why does that make him/her a hero of equal value to someone who got shot at?

    Why does someone who got shot at have a heroicness of equal value to someone who ran back into a battlefield to save a wounded soldier?

    What if one of those soldiers raped someone, before or after this? Who is the hero then?

    Why do we use the term 'hero' rather than the more accurate term 'pawn', or 'statistic'?

    Why does one become less of a hero the further away from the battlefield and being shot at they are? Why do you become a hero if you're in the front line of a controversial war shooting people, but not for being the President/Prime Minister/whatever that arranged it?

    If I go to the zoo, jump into the lion enclosure, get attacked by a lion but kill it, why does that not make me a hero?

    If someone threatens me, do I become a hero if I fight their friends because my dad told me to?

    Just wonderin'. Being a hero doesn't seem that simple to me, but I await your theories.
    Why must I ask so many pointless a "troll"ish rhetorical questions??
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    (Original post by Jamesey)
    Why must I ask so many pointless a "troll"ish rhetorical questions??
    Wow. You actually believe a view other than yours is trolling, and thus you actually post a troll post because of that.

    I assume you are massively ingrained in the belief soldiers are automatically heroes. If so, why? That would be a start. And please don't just say "because they're fighting for our country" or "they're risking their lives". Give me actual reasons and give me the whys and hows.
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    (Original post by nonotrly)
    Forget the 'news' media telling you, tell me why YOU think this.



















    "Someone grows up obsessed with guns, doesn't feel s/he has the intelligence to get a degree or a job, or s/he becomes a chav, and is automatically directed toward the army as their career. Why does that person then suddenly become a hero?"

    Thats a very narrow minded and incorrect view of an armed forces member, but I'll humor you. Having a degree or job doesn't make you a hero, likewise being a chav doesn't prevent you from being a hero. They become a hero because of what their new job (so they are intelligent enough to get a job) requires them to do.

    "If that person is a wifebeater, a bully, why do you blindly say that person is a hero?"
    "What if one of those soldiers raped someone, before or after this? Who is the hero then?"

    Because its safe to say that those sort of people are a minority, so we give the soldier community as a whole the benefit of the doubt.

    "If George W Bush is evil, what does that make his soldiers? Heroes?"

    I don't think he is EVIL in the sense that wars he got into were evil, so the soldiers fighting in those wars, to protect the freedoms of others, are heroes yes.

    "If, to give a less complicated example, Britain invaded Latvia quite abruptly, how are the soldiers there 'defending our freedom'?"

    They would not be heroes then of course, but that hasn't happened, in this day and age there has always been a reasonable excuse for military action, its never random.

    "If someone went to Afghanistan and was not called upon to do anything, why does that make him/her a hero of equal value to someone who got shot at?"

    "Why does someone who got shot at have a heroicness of equal value to someone who ran back into a battlefield to save a wounded soldier?"

    It does not/they don't, the latter person is more of a hero, I don't think anyone would dispute that.

    "Why do we use the term 'hero' rather than the more accurate term 'pawn', or 'statistic'?"

    Now that is a troll question if ever I saw one. assuming you have a modicum of common sense you know the answer to that already.

    "Why does one become less of a hero the further away from the battlefield and being shot at they are?"

    Because the closer you are the more risky it becomes, I'd've thought that was obvious.

    "Why do you become a hero if you're in the front line of a controversial war shooting people, but not for being the President/Prime Minister/whatever that arranged it?"

    Well its two heros of differing types, take Iraq for example. Tony Blair can be considered some sort of hero for organising the saving Iraqis like that, but so of course can the soldiers.

    "If I go to the zoo, jump into the lion enclosure, get attacked by a lion but kill it, why does that not make me a hero?"

    Because rather than putting your self at risk to do some good, you have done it for the sake of it and in fact killed an innocent animal that has done you or anyone else no harm.

    "If someone threatens me, do I become a hero if I fight their friends because my dad told me to?"

    Well their friends haven't done you any harm, so there would not be any need to fight them.
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    The attitude of this thread seems to be that a soldier is a hero until he becomes otherwise. Very few people appear to have addressed the original post, whose overall message seemed to be that it is not clear that this should be the case.
 
 
 
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