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    (Original post by skatealexia)
    Just my thoughts.
    I agree with you; it would be pretty impossible to do for an EPQ. But I do feel that if you cannot afford or are not willing to pay for yearly vaccinations, worm treatment, etc. then should you really be getting a dog?! Its an expensive responsibility. I can understand not paying for a £1000s surgery but relatively cheap (not that cheap but cheaper than having to cure something) preventative methods should be used. Saying that, I found out a few months ago, that our family dog hadn't had worms/ fleas because my mum had not got round to it; I have taken charge and she is up to date with everything! And also puppy classes? I know personally a child that got attacked by a dog and although not fatal (as many are) he will be scarred for life, both mentally and physically (okay, that sounded way to dramatic but he is scarred badly on one leg and freaks out badly whenever he sees a dog) I know they are expensive but so is buying a dog and its food, bed etc. Its a commitment!
    Anyways, rant about that is over! I think pets feeling affection would be really good though (I hope!) and i found out that animals/ pets are incapable of 'love' which i thought was really interesting ... so is it just a one-way relationship?
    Does anyone know the name of the type of farm where its minimising work at the maximum? I heard about it from the lambing farmers i was with this year and even they thought it was brutal on the animals. Its where the ewes and lambs (example being a sheep farm!) are expected to do everything on their own - suckling etc. (but obviously not iodine cords etc.) and any prolapses/ difficult births are basically killed on sight - too much work. and if the ewe dies at birth and the lambs need bottle feeding etc. then they will also be killed. I was thinking of looking into its ethics for an EPQ though would not want to get the wrong idea across to unis that i dont like farming/ killing of cute animals etc. etc. etc. because i love farming and am (hopefully) going to abattoir in the summer. Thanks! xxx
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    (Original post by Percival Weasley)
    Does anyone know the name of the type of farm where its minimising work at the maximum? I heard about it from the lambing farmers i was with this year and even they thought it was brutal on the animals. Its where the ewes and lambs (example being a sheep farm!) are expected to do everything on their own - suckling etc. (but obviously not iodine cords etc.) and any prolapses/ difficult births are basically killed on sight - too much work. and if the ewe dies at birth and the lambs need bottle feeding etc. then they will also be killed. I was thinking of looking into its ethics for an EPQ though would not want to get the wrong idea across to unis that i dont like farming/ killing of cute animals etc. etc. etc. because i love farming and am (hopefully) going to abattoir in the summer. Thanks! xxx
    I'm not sure that I quite understand what you're referring to ('minimising work at the maximum'???), but do you mean an intensive farm?
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    (Original post by Little Tail Chaser)
    I'm not sure that I quite understand what you're referring to ('minimising work at the maximum'???), but do you mean an intensive farm?
    I think it would be the very opposite of intensive, low labour, low cost, big scale. New Zealand style.
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    (Original post by Percival Weasley)
    I agree with you; it would be pretty impossible to do for an EPQ. But I do feel that if you cannot afford or are not willing to pay for yearly vaccinations, worm treatment, etc. then should you really be getting a dog?! Its an expensive responsibility. I can understand not paying for a £1000s surgery but relatively cheap (not that cheap but cheaper than having to cure something) preventative methods should be used. Saying that, I found out a few months ago, that our family dog hadn't had worms/ fleas because my mum had not got round to it; I have taken charge and she is up to date with everything! And also puppy classes? I know personally a child that got attacked by a dog and although not fatal (as many are) he will be scarred for life, both mentally and physically (okay, that sounded way to dramatic but he is scarred badly on one leg and freaks out badly whenever he sees a dog) I know they are expensive but so is buying a dog and its food, bed etc. Its a commitment!
    Anyways, rant about that is over! I think pets feeling affection would be really good though (I hope!) and i found out that animals/ pets are incapable of 'love' which i thought was really interesting ... so is it just a one-way relationship?
    Does anyone know the name of the type of farm where its minimising work at the maximum? I heard about it from the lambing farmers i was with this year and even they thought it was brutal on the animals. Its where the ewes and lambs (example being a sheep farm!) are expected to do everything on their own - suckling etc. (but obviously not iodine cords etc.) and any prolapses/ difficult births are basically killed on sight - too much work. and if the ewe dies at birth and the lambs need bottle feeding etc. then they will also be killed. I was thinking of looking into its ethics for an EPQ though would not want to get the wrong idea across to unis that i dont like farming/ killing of cute animals etc. etc. etc. because i love farming and am (hopefully) going to abattoir in the summer. Thanks! xxx
    I'm sorry but you have really got to open your mind a little.
    Firstly new evidence is starting I suggest that some vaccines are lifelong covering and that our previous stance of annually may have to be reconsidered. Obviously with the degree of mutations the flu-influenza vaccination is required commonly.
    Secondly as a vet student myself, I have not dewormed by dog since he was a puppy. His last check up I brought in a faecal sample and he's fine.
    The dewormers can cause a variety of GIT problems. think about what they actualy have to do to remove the parasites.
    Animals are capable of love, it's expressed differently than humans but they do have it.
    When it comes to farms the farmer is there for profit. It's more than just the mother dying costs. Will it make it to weaning age? Will investment into the lamb cost more than its worth? Has he got the resources to look after it? Cattle are practically a version of currency, valued as cash in farming economics, not pets....
    If you're going to come on here and cast judgements, get the whole picture first. Rant over
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    (Original post by Little Tail Chaser)
    I'm not sure that I quite understand what you're referring to ('minimising work at the maximum'???), but do you mean an intensive farm?
    (Original post by TheMilkyScotsman)
    I think it would be the very opposite of intensive, low labour, low cost, big scale. New Zealand style.
    Yeah, i think intensive is the name; intensive for the animals than for farmers! Not too keen for it as an EPQ though but I will look into it! :rolleyes: in all my free time...
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    (Original post by Percival Weasley)
    Well, i was thinking something like 'how to make dog owners more responsible' because at sa vets, i was surprised at the number cases caused by dogs not been given vaccinations/ worm + flea treatment and at rescue centre, lost pets werent uncommon despite chipping being so cheap. (though i think i read chipping was coming compulsory in 2016 so its a start!)
    Skatealexia has made some really good points about why owners so not vaccinate.

    As for the lost pets you saw - how many were deliberately abandoned rather than truly lost? Compulsory chipping is a good idea - but the amount of horses without passports (also compulsory) and dogs without dog tags (illegal) makes me wonder if this will ever be enforced. And the for those that are chipped - how many owners will forget to update their contact details when they change? If it helps reunite more lost dogs then that;s brilliant, but if someone is irresponsible and never takes their dog to the vet they won't get chipped or if they are stolen then it's not going to be hard for their thieves to remove the chip with a penknife.


    but you could also look at agressive dogs (...should puppy classes be compulsory??) and injury rates and linking this to different dog breeds and also why there are so many abandoned pets
    There are studies out there linking aggression to different breeds and also what factors make someone more likely to be bitten (research shows a familiar dog is most likely to cause harm). You can look at what it costs the NHS and what burden it has on people that are affected. You could look into whether the dangerous dog act is actually fit for purpose in the UK, and what could be done to reduce dog attacks.


    But i also really liked the idea of 'do pets feel affection for their owners' which kinda stems from watching hydrotherapy at a vets which is greatly centred around the owner-pet relationship and then adding in a vet. And it would also be quite dependant on the type of pet.
    Another, slightly more broad topic could be looking into what benefits owning an animals has on a person? There is lots of research out there showing the benefits in children and adults having an animal to look after. I think there was some research showing that prisoners who had looked after a love bird showed less aggression, and that children will miss fewer days off school and have fewer trips to their GP if they own a pet. Mixed opinions on pets & allergies.



    (Original post by Percival Weasley)
    But I do feel that if you cannot afford or are not willing to pay for yearly vaccinations, worm treatment, etc. then should you really be getting a dog?! Its an expensive responsibility. I can understand not paying for a £1000s surgery but relatively cheap (not that cheap but cheaper than having to cure something) preventative methods should be used.
    At my local vets, yearly vaccs, 6 months of wormer and 6 months flea treatment would set you back around £100 for a medium sized dog so I wouldn't say it's cheap!
    Some vets don't even worm their dogs as frequently as the product data sheet recommends. It's all about assessing risks and it's also down to the owner - preventable treatment can cause side effects and some of these can be severe (vaccine induced sarcomas in cats for example). Is it also responsible to be blanket worming all domesticated pets with the same product (think wormer/flea resistance)?

    As for everyone who says that owners should have the money to pay for everything for their pet, I think it's important to remember that financial situations can change during an animal's life time (which may be 20 years for a cat and 50 years for a parrot) and it's sometimes too easy to judge someone who cannot afford treatment. Nobody expects to get divorced, made redundant or have other sudden outgoings. Of course, there are others who don't think about the costs of getting a pet before buying one which is another problem...

    I think pets feeling affection would be really good though (I hope!) and i found out that animals/ pets are incapable of 'love' which i thought was really interesting ... so is it just a one-way relationship?
    How do you define love? I don't think it's one way relationship as I read that stroking a dog releases oxytocin in both the animal and owner. Dogs evolved from wolves to mutually benefit man.

    Does anyone know the name of the type of farm where its minimising work at the maximum? I heard about it from the lambing farmers i was with this year and even they thought it was brutal on the animals. Its where the ewes and lambs (example being a sheep farm!) are expected to do everything on their own - suckling etc. (but obviously not iodine cords etc.) and any prolapses/ difficult births are basically killed on sight - too much work. and if the ewe dies at birth and the lambs need bottle feeding etc. then they will also be killed.
    Extensive sheep farms (more common in upland and hill areas but not exclusively) - low input and low output systems is where sheep are left to their own devices. Mortality is possibly higher in extensive sheep farms, but if you don't have the buildings to house the animals then you can't really intervene as easily (sheep are not restrained within a smaller pen and are difficult to catch and generally may be spread out over several fields). More hardy breeds are often used to minimise lambing and mothering problems and they may also aim for a lower lambing % (esp hill sheep farmers).

    As for pet lambs, farmers don't make any money out of them so really it is up to their own good will to do this - milk is expensive and also the farmer's time is valuable so really they are probably losing money on them.

    Many sheep farmers will also kill the mothers who cannot give birth after simple interventions because a caesarian can cost more than the ewe is worth and may not result in a live lamb anyway.

    Hope this helps!
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    (Original post by JamesG1001)
    I'm sorry but you have really got to open your mind a little.
    Firstly new evidence is starting I suggest that some vaccines are lifelong covering and that our previous stance of annually may have to be reconsidered. Obviously with the degree of mutations the flu-influenza vaccination is required commonly.
    Secondly as a vet student myself, I have not dewormed by dog since he was a puppy. His last check up I brought in a faecal sample and he's fine.
    The dewormers can cause a variety of GIT problems. think about what they actualy have to do to remove the parasites.
    Animals are capable of love, it's expressed differently than humans but they do have it.
    When it comes to farms the farmer is there for profit. It's more than just the mother dying costs. Will it make it to weaning age? Will investment into the lamb cost more than its worth? Has he got the resources to look after it? Cattle are practically a version of currency, valued as cash in farming economics, not pets....
    If you're going to come on here and cast judgements, get the whole picture first. Rant over
    Your comment about wormers having side effects shows you obviously have no idea what their mode of action is. Side effects of wormers are very rare as the active ingredients target the worms only and don’t affect the host dog at all hence why wormers have high therapeutic index (you can actually give dogs 10x the dose before you start seeing signs of intolerance). If they have a high worm burden they might get diarrhoea or vomiting as the worms are kicked out but in that case they are obviously desperate for worming anyway.

    Doing faecal egg counts for worms that produce larvae such as lungworms is also unreliable as the daily larval excretion rate varies so ideally you should take samples on consecutive days but if you find it works for you fair enough.

    The reason dogs are wormed is because of the risks to the human health and as few people take faecal samples to their vets on a regular basis, worming is by far the best method of controlling this risk.

    And although I agree that the original poster may be being slightly naïve about the realities of vaccinations/puppy classes etc.. she is not yet at vet school and may not have spent that much time in practice where you will get a much better understanding of the realities of veterinary practice, the priorities of owners and problems with money so I wouldn’t be so hasty in judging someone who is obviously trying to learn. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but after doing research and talking to other people (which the OP is doing) your opinion can change and will be based on facts.
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    (Original post by TheMilkyScotsman)
    I think it would be the very opposite of intensive, low labour, low cost, big scale. New Zealand style.
    D'oh, you're right, I meant extensive My mistake, thanks for pointing it out.
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    (Original post by Percival Weasley)
    Yeah, i think intensive is the name; intensive for the animals than for farmers! Not too keen for it as an EPQ though but I will look into it! :rolleyes: in all my free time...
    Maybe try something less 'ethical' or opinion based and look at something more scientific and fact based. If you want to do a dog based one, looking into alabama rot 'seasonal canine illness' would be quite a good new topic to do .
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    There is a difference to learning and making statements, some dewormers (not allowed to mention brands) damage a lot of Protozoa and bacteria post caecum, which can allow the tract to become overrun. Acute side effects are seen as simple excessive motility of the gut, but occasionally there have been reports of more severe side effects. I weighed up the cost of risk and because my dog doesn't have behaviour which may encourage parasites I decided it wasn't worth doing him. I'm demonstrating why not all dogs need to be routinely dewormed, I really do hope you agree on that!
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    (Original post by JamesG1001)
    There is a difference to learning and making statements, some dewormers (not allowed to mention brands) damage a lot of Protozoa and bacteria post caecum, which can allow the tract to become overrun. Acute side effects are seen as simple excessive motility of the gut, but occasionally there have been reports of more severe side effects. I weighed up the cost of risk and because my dog doesn't have behaviour which may encourage parasites I decided it wasn't worth doing him. I'm demonstrating why not all dogs need to be routinely dewormed, I really do hope you agree on that!
    I would be really interested to know what wormer it is that damages bacteria post caecum as I'v not heard of one so if you could PM me if you don't want to put the particular brand on here that would be great and then I can have a look into it. If it has side effects like you're saying I obviously need to be aware of it, thanks

    And although I appreciate that you have weighed up the risks and benefits of using wormers in your dog, worms are transmitted by faeces (dogs, cats, sheep, cows, rodents), contaminated soil, water, fleas etc so unless your dog never goes to public places, walks through fields or goes in streams/rivers etc it seems unlikely that he will have behavior that doesn't encourage parasites. However I obviously don't know your particular circumstances and I'm sure being a vet student you will know what is best for you dog.
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    (Original post by JamesG1001)
    There is a difference to learning and making statements, some dewormers (not allowed to mention brands) damage a lot of Protozoa and bacteria post caecum, which can allow the tract to become overrun. Acute side effects are seen as simple excessive motility of the gut, but occasionally there have been reports of more severe side effects. I weighed up the cost of risk and because my dog doesn't have behaviour which may encourage parasites I decided it wasn't worth doing him. I'm demonstrating why not all dogs need to be routinely dewormed, I really do hope you agree on that!
    Whilst I agree that over worming may not be ideal, I have yet to see any papers saying that they destroy protozoa (which are far from the key digesters in the monogastrics gut - I'm not aware they play any significant role) and bacteria, you got a link to a study?

    Most dogs will come into contact with parasites if they go out in public/ come in contact with other dogs/ animals. So surely once a year minimum would be ideal?
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    Hey guys this is going to sound like a silly question, but did anyone else have to do an ALICE test on their first day at college? It was like a computerised hour long test to determine our predicted AS grades. It basically had nothing to do with our subjects so everyone did really badly Do my AS predicted grades impact o A2 predicted grades? So even if i get good AS grades, will my A2 predicted grades be brought down? x
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    (Original post by melancholyblues)
    Hey guys this is going to sound like a silly question, but did anyone else have to do an ALICE test on their first day at college? It was like a computerised hour long test to determine our predicted AS grades. It basically had nothing to do with our subjects so everyone did really badly Do my AS predicted grades impact o A2 predicted grades? So even if i get good AS grades, will my A2 predicted grades be brought down? x
    Usually you will be predicted whatever grade you get at AS for your A2 predicted grades that's what happened at my college anyway


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    (Original post by Angry cucumber)
    Whilst I agree that over worming may not be ideal, I have yet to see any papers saying that they destroy protozoa (which are far from the key digesters in the monogastrics gut - I'm not aware they play any significant role) and bacteria, you got a link to a study?

    Most dogs will come into contact with parasites if they go out in public/ come in contact with other dogs/ animals. So surely once a year minimum would be ideal?
    Nico's 5 and hasn't needed to be done, the only perk of having a dog that isn't good with other dogs (rescue).
    After he settled I gave him a dewormer and it ruined his gut motility. As in he had to go out for a number 2 so frequently and it became a fire hydrant.
    We had a dog in a clinic I was in which was being routinely done, on advice of a pet supermarket, that had to be taken to the vet. In addition to removing the good post caecal it had also caused chronic diarrhoea. The vet I was shadowing said it.
    I've always accepted dewormers are needed if your dog eats slugs/snails, has a lot of face to face contact or eats faecal matter. Nico is never in the garden without my supervision (local dog thefts) so I don't see the need. If I have any change in the consistency of his faeces or of he does something that could put him in with a chance of gettin parasites then I'll do it.
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    (Original post by Percival Weasley)
    Is anyone doing an EPQ (related to vet med of course!) Its compulsory at my school and they keep asking us about it and I just have no idea what to do it on?! So was wondering if you guys have any ideas?
    Their advice was not on something too common (such as animal testing) but something where experiments/research etc. has already been done but not too much ... so the most 'helpful' advice really!!
    Mine was 'The Ethics of Biological Resurrection' of which was not strictly veterinary medicine but I interviewed people that worked in wildlife conservation etc. and looked at the ethics of zoos/habitat destruction etc.
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    (Original post by JamesG1001)
    Nico's 5 and hasn't needed to be done, the only perk of having a dog that isn't good with other dogs (rescue).
    After he settled I gave him a dewormer and it ruined his gut motility. As in he had to go out for a number 2 so frequently and it became a fire hydrant.
    We had a dog in a clinic I was in which was being routinely done, on advice of a pet supermarket, that had to be taken to the vet. In addition to removing the good post caecal it had also caused chronic diarrhoea. The vet I was shadowing said it.
    I've always accepted dewormers are needed if your dog eats slugs/snails, has a lot of face to face contact or eats faecal matter. Nico is never in the garden without my supervision (local dog thefts) so I don't see the need. If I have any change in the consistency of his faeces or of he does something that could put him in with a chance of gettin parasites then I'll do it.
    I’m assuming you’ve not studied parasitology at uni yet.
    As far as I’m aware lungworm is the only parasite transmitted by slugs/snails but there is also evidence that it can be transmitted from snail trails so if your dog eats grass or drinks from puddles it is also at risk.
    While checking faeces consistency is a good way of monitoring for some worms, dogs are asymptomatic carriers of tapeworms so you won’t know if your dog has them. They can be transmitted by wildlife and livestock and some are zoonotic. So if your dog walks through fields (or even your garden if foxes pass through) and then licks it’s paws it could be infected with tapeworm. Therefore I would definitely recommend at least worming for tapeworm every now and then depending on how frequently you do FEC. Worm eggs survive in the environment for a long time so just walking your dog through an area where other animals go puts him at risk.
    Maybe as you learn more your views will change.
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    (Original post by JamesG1001)
    Nico's 5 and hasn't needed to be done, the only perk of having a dog that isn't good with other dogs (rescue).
    After he settled I gave him a dewormer and it ruined his gut motility. As in he had to go out for a number 2 so frequently and it became a fire hydrant.
    We had a dog in a clinic I was in which was being routinely done, on advice of a pet supermarket, that had to be taken to the vet. In addition to removing the good post caecal it had also caused chronic diarrhoea. The vet I was shadowing said it.
    I've always accepted dewormers are needed if your dog eats slugs/snails, has a lot of face to face contact or eats faecal matter. Nico is never in the garden without my supervision (local dog thefts) so I don't see the need. If I have any change in the consistency of his faeces or of he does something that could put him in with a chance of gettin parasites then I'll do it.
    Anecdotal evidence is not scientific. Your dog could well have picked up a stomach bug.

    Angiostrongylus vasorum is the only canine parasite I'm aware of that is transmitted by slugs and snails. There's a whole raft of others that your dog could pick up from other sources such as hookworm, tapeworms etc.
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    (Original post by beccac94)
    The none core are the icing on the cake basically, concentrate on the core first of all such as lambing, dairy farm, stables cattery, kennels, large animal vets and small animal vets and aim for more than the minimum 10 weeks.
    Once you have a fair amount in these areas then I'd look into doing the non-core stuff
    I've had about three weeks working on a sheep farm, a weeks lambing, I've been milking most nights for two years and have done three weeks at a small animal vets, planning a week of large animal practice in summer and have applied to a "Zoo Keeper Academy" in summer too. So i've got a wide variety but I just hope it's all okay!
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    (Original post by Abby_W31)
    I've had about three weeks working on a sheep farm, a weeks lambing, I've been milking most nights for two years and have done three weeks at a small animal vets, planning a week of large animal practice in summer and have applied to a "Zoo Keeper Academy" in summer too. So i've got a wide variety but I just hope it's all okay!
    How about a horse husbandry placement? Something like a riding school, livery yard, mounted police would be a good idea for your application. Other than that maybe doing another farm species would add variety e.g. pigs or poultry are big industries in the UK as well. A lab or abattoir placement would also be a nice 'icing on the cake' if you can get this.

    Good luck!
 
 
 
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