Miscellaneous Thread Part II

Original post by difeo

Tbf it is bull**** that 35% of the votes gets you majority control

no sympathy really..

People have short memories, the british public voted 68% to keep our current voting system just a few years back.

Ofcourse that was for AV not PR - but it still may have helped the problem.

Though in reality, I any left-wing person who thinks that a propertional election system would have helped them, is really failing to grasp what would have happened:

Currently there are:

332 - right wing seats (conservative + ukip)
297 - left wing seats-ish (lab, lib, snp, green)

Under PR, there would have been:

344 - right wing seats (con + ukip)
305 - left wing seats (lab,lib,snp,green)

So actually, it would be even worse for left-leaning people, if we had a proportional system..

And to top it all off, the conservatives would still be in power, all be it probably with ukip. which owuld be even more right wing for the country..

So.. yeah.

Reply 3562

Depleted

3

Original post by Pimped Butterfly

Ask anyone in the NHS (ie those that matter) if they're happy with the way that the Tories are approaching the NHS and you'll get a resounding no.

*awaits SHOO rant*

Reply 3563

difeo

18

Original post by fallen_acorns

no sympathy really..

People have short memories, the british public voted 68% to keep our current voting system just a few years back.

Ofcourse that was for AV not PR - but it still may have helped the problem.

Though in reality, I any left-wing person who thinks that a propertional election system would have helped them, is really failing to grasp what would have happened:

Currently there are:

332 - right wing seats (conservative + ukip)
297 - left wing seats-ish (lab, lib, snp, green)

Under PR, there would have been:

344 - right wing seats (con + ukip)
305 - left wing seats (lab,lib,snp,green)

So actually, it would be even worse for left-leaning people, if we had a proportional system..

And to top it all off, the conservatives would still be in power, all be it probably with ukip. which owuld be even more right wing for the country..

So.. yeah.

As you say they voted No to AV, not to PR. AV can be just as unfair as FPTP. It probably wouldn't have helped the problem if they voted yes, as that would prevent another referendum from happening for ages, whereas a PR referendum is still a possibility.

It's true that PR wouldn't have helped the people rioting, but maybe they'd find it easier to take if it was a fair outcome despite not being their preferred one. It's Ukip Green and Lib Dem voters who have the right to be most annoyed.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 3564

fallen_acorns

Original post by difeo

They voted No to AV, not to PR. AV can be just as unfair as FPTP.

It's true that PR wouldn't have helped the people rioting, but maybe they'd find it easier to take if it was a fair outcome despite not being their preferred one. It's Ukip Green and Lib Dem voters who have the right to be most annoyed.

the problem with PR is that, is it really fair?

I mean, its very very fair on a national level..

But on a local level it can cause a good number of problems if its not implemented right - after all you could have a constituancy who votes 60% for torries, but ends up with a UKIP MP - this would have happened in quite a few places under the last elections results

Reply 3565

username1315644

17

Bull**** protests. They were just elected (re-elected at that), we had the option of AV and could barely be bothered to reject it, and if we were using a PR system the largest section of the vote would still be UKIP-Conservative block.

Reply 3566

ZÃ¼rich

The party list system they use on the continent is much much less accountable. Parties smuggle completely inept guys,mostly career politicians who climbed the greasy ladder, into parliament on the back of these PR votes and they're basically not accountable at all. Say what you like about it as well, FPTP generally guarantees stable government as well.
Also how much of a numpty do you have to be to complain about the FPTP system as a Labour supporter?

And lol at the protesters in London today. 90% of them are the children of very wealthy families from like Shropshire who want to play revolution for a bit. None of their actual political stances stand up to any kind of sensible scrutiny either, any trendy leftist idea gets an audience with them. Seen so many of them at LSE when I was there. Useless human beings

(edited 8 years ago)

Original post by Pimped Butterfly

Ask anyone in the NHS (ie those that matter) if they're happy with the way that the Tories are approaching the NHS and you'll get a resounding no.

Are we to assume that NHS workers do not also look out for themselves? Youve got to respect the work they do of course but public sector workers will always support the Labour party for self interested reasons.

Have to laugh when you see public sector bureaucrats claiming they're angry at the Tories for the impact on public services when in fact they're just trying to save their own unemployable bacon.

Reply 3569

Original post by Zürich

Are we to assume that NHS workers do not also look out for themselves? Youve got to respect the work they do of course but public sector workers will always support the Labour party for self interested reasons.

Have to laugh when you see public sector bureaucrats claiming they're angry at the Tories for the impact on public services when in fact they're just trying to save their own unemployable bacon.

Even Yankees doctors are on the look out for themselves in Britain?

Reply 3570

ZÃ¼rich

Original post by atom y humber

Even Yankees doctors are on the look out for themselves in Britain?

Not really talking about doctors here, very few people go into medicine for the money(although it's a factor too)

Talking mainly about bureaucratic waste here. You could take an axe to hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs and not see any decline in public service quality.

And there's an obvious slight of hand here as well. The Guardian like to give the impression that the Tories are throwing people out of cancer wards when they're basically just reforming the back office stuff.

Know at my 6th form their were 4 receptionists on duty most of the time for instance, and they spent their days reading Look magazine online. They'll always vote Labour for self preservation and that's something alot of people should realise. And often their own interests conflict directly with the public's. See how teachers unions react when the government tries to shake their lifes up to improve standards, they fight tooth and nail for their own interests instead.

Hard to feel sympathy for that

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 3571

I'd agree with the notion put against PR that it makes it less MPs less accountable to their constituency if there's much local accountability. Accountability pretty much comes on the national level. No one here votes for a person, we vote for parties.

Anyways, single transferable vote takes away that argument and its the way to go.

AV referendum wajust a shamble. Since both Labour and Tories benefit from PFTP so it won't change for a long time.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 3572

Original post by Zürich

Not really talking about doctors here, very few people go into medicine for the money(although it's a factor too)

Talking mainly about bureaucratic waste here. You could take an axe to hundreds of thousands of public sector jobs and not see any decline in public service quality.

And there's an obvious slight of hand here as well. The Guardian like to give the impression that the Tories are throwing people out of cancer wards when they're basically just reforming the back office stuff.

Know at my 6th form their were 4 receptionists on duty most of the time for instance, and they spent their days reading Look magazine online. They'll always vote Labour for self preservation and that's something alot of people should realise. And often their own interests conflict directly with the public's. See how teachers unions react when the government tries to shake their lifes up to improve standards, they fight tooth and nail for their own interests instead.

Hard to feel sympathy for that

My point was irt to your first sentence.

You're grossly undervaluing the extent of the changes they made if you're just sweeping it under "bureaucratic waste".

If anything, I'd like them to deal parliamentary waste. £90m/year on printing alone. **** me.

Reply 3573

ZÃ¼rich

Original post by atom y humber

My point was irt to your first sentence.

You're grossly undervaluing the extent of the changes they made if you're just sweeping it under "bureaucratic waste".

If anything, I'd like them to deal parliamentary waste. £90m/year on printing alone. **** me.

Satisfaction with public services have hardly decreased at all. Polls show that.

As i say, it's a slight of hand. Hysterical overreaction that is typical of many on the left

Reply 3574

The Shed End

2

[video]https://youtu.be/5JFJwDxBpCY[/video]

One of the best Thug Life's I've seen simply for the image that was in the Facebook comments section under the video

Reply 3575

Original post by Zürich

Satisfaction with public services have hardly decreased at all. Polls show that.

As i say, it's a slight of hand. Hysterical overreaction that is typical of many on the left

Polls

Protests suggest otherwise.

And yours is just the typical hysterical overreaction of the right to their perceived hysterical overreaction of the left.

Reply 3576

fallen_acorns

Original post by atom y humber

Polls

Protests suggest otherwise.

And yours is just the typical hysterical overreaction of the right to their perceived hysterical overreaction of the left.

to be fair, it was only a protest of 200 people..

Reply 3577