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Rational functions inequality question

Hi all,

I am attempting to solve Q9 here.

https://ibb.co/MP3LhnP

Here is my thought process so far:

So I will first attempt to solve algebraically, as the unknown, p, makes the sketch difficult. So I am going to multiply both sides by (px+1)^2, to avoid multiplying by a negative.

This leads to the following inequality.

https://ibb.co/Hdr1n1r

So I can see that we can rearrange the function into a cubic which is less than 0. In other words we are interested in the parts of a cubic graph which are below the x axis.

We are told that the solutions are x<q, r<x<3.

So in a similar way to some of the questions I answered earlier in the week we can sketch roughly what the cubic may look like (note that r and q may be in different positions ie their signs might not be correct in the sketch, but this doesn't matter too much for now).

https://ibb.co/DKYztb3

So from my sketch I can get another expression for the function. (Note the constant p^2)

https://ibb.co/svShVkS

So like we did earlier in the week we can set these two expressions equal to each other and equate the coefficients.

https://ibb.co/JxhczYF


And this is as far as I am up to! I am struggling to solve the equations and get p, q and r.

I know that the equations I have are correct because they work when we substitute the answers in! Perhaps one of you can help here?

Scroll to see replies

Original post by jc768
Hi all,

I am attempting to solve Q9 here.

https://ibb.co/MP3LhnP

Here is my thought process so far:

So I will first attempt to solve algebraically, as the unknown, p, makes the sketch difficult. So I am going to multiply both sides by (px+1)^2, to avoid multiplying by a negative.

This leads to the following inequality.

https://ibb.co/Hdr1n1r

So I can see that we can rearrange the function into a cubic which is less than 0. In other words we are interested in the parts of a cubic graph which are below the x axis.

We are told that the solutions are x<q, r<x<3.

So in a similar way to some of the questions I answered earlier in the week we can sketch roughly what the cubic may look like (note that r and q may be in different positions ie their signs might not be correct in the sketch, but this doesn't matter too much for now).

https://ibb.co/DKYztb3

So from my sketch I can get another expression for the function. (Note the constant p^2)

https://ibb.co/svShVkS

So like we did earlier in the week we can set these two expressions equal to each other and equate the coefficients.

https://ibb.co/JxhczYF


And this is as far as I am up to! I am struggling to solve the equations and get p, q and r.

I know that the equations I have are correct because they work when we substitute the answers in! Perhaps one of you can help here?


Good progress. No need to jump right into comparing coefficients however.

You have recognised that p2x3+(4p214p)x2+(7p15)x+3p^2x^3 + (4p^2 -14p)x^2 + (7p-15)x+3 can be written in the form p2(xq)(xr)(x3)p^2(x-q)(x-r)(x-3).

Since x=3x=3 is a root of p2(xq)(xr)(x3)p^2(x-q)(x-r)(x-3), it automatically means it must be a root of p2x3+(4p214p)x2+(7p15)x+3 p^2x^3 + (4p^2 -14p)x^2 + (7p-15)x+3. Imposing this allows you to deduce a quadratic in pp which you can solve.

Hopefully this gives you the nudge to finish it off by finding q,r.
Reply 2
Original post by RDKGames
Good progress. No need to jump right into comparing coefficients however.

You have recognised that p2x3+(4p214p)x2+(7p15)x+3p^2x^3 + (4p^2 -14p)x^2 + (7p-15)x+3 can be written in the form p2(xq)(xr)(x3)p^2(x-q)(x-r)(x-3).

Since x=3x=3 is a root of p2(xq)(xr)(x3)p^2(x-q)(x-r)(x-3), it automatically means it must be a root of p2x3+(4p214p)x2+(7p15)x+3 p^2x^3 + (4p^2 -14p)x^2 + (7p-15)x+3. Imposing this allows you to deduce a quadratic in pp which you can solve.

Hopefully this gives you the nudge to finish it off by finding q,r.

Brilliant, thanks, 1 more question, how do I know to choose p=2 as opposed to p=-1/3
Reply 3
Original post by jc768
Brilliant, thanks, 1 more question, how do I know to choose p=2 as opposed to p=-1/3

I think I've answered this one myself actually, using p=-1/3 leads to q=3, r=-3, which contradicts the inequality r<x<3
Original post by jc768
I think I've answered this one myself actually, using p=-1/3 leads to q=3, r=-3, which contradicts the inequality r<x<3


And how did you arrive at this conclusion?
Reply 5
Original post by RDKGames
And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

The solutions stated at the start if the question are that x<q or r<x<3

q=-3 and r=3 do not work for this, how can r<x<3 if r =3
nor do
q=3 and r=-3.

These come from p=-1/3.


So therefore we must use p=2 which leads to q=-0.5, p=0.5.
Which do work for the inequalities stated at the start.
Original post by jc768
The solutions stated at the start if the question are that x<q or r<x<3

q=-3 and r=3 do not work for this, how can r<x<3 if r =3
nor do
q=3 and r=-3.

These come from p=-1/3.


So therefore we must use p=2 which leads to q=-0.5, p=0.5.
Which do work for the inequalities stated at the start.


I was more interested in how you deduced the values q,r using p=-1/3
Reply 7
Original post by RDKGames
I was more interested in how you deduced the values q,r using p=-1/3

Substituted p=-1/3 into equations I had achieved earlier by equating the coefficients.
Original post by jc768
Substituted p=-1/3 into equations I had achieved earlier by equating the coefficients.


Can you post your working out?
Reply 9
Original post by RDKGames
Can you post your working out?

Must have made a mistake.... I'm now getting 43.2 and-0.208 ???
Reply 10
While I have your attention can I have some help with Q10 aswell.

(check the original image)

I have solved part a:

https://ibb.co/wSKJ1n0

but at a loss where to go with part b
Original post by jc768
Must have made a mistake.... I'm now getting 43.2 and-0.208 ???


Indeed, you are making mistakes. Those values are still incorrect.

What I was slowly getting you to do is look over your work because it was clear to me you made a mistake in your logic somewhere.

To cut to the chase; both pp values work here, but r,qr,q values are different for either option.

When p=2:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=solve+%2816x%2B1%29%2F%282x%2B1%29+%3E+x%2B4

When p=-1/3:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=solve+%2816x%2B1%29%2F%28-x%2F3%2B1%29+%3E+x%2B4


You can clearly see what r,q values must be for each p from here.


As far as I see, nothing in the question rules out either possibility, which means the question is badly written since it sounds like there should only be one.
Original post by jc768
While I have your attention can I have some help with Q10 aswell.

(check the original image)

I have solved part a:

https://ibb.co/wSKJ1n0

but at a loss where to go with part b


From part (a) it should be clear that for any value of m>0m>0, there are two possible cc values. Hence, this is saying that there are two parallel tangents to the curve. One of them touches the curve at P(p,q)P(p,q) and the other at R(r,s)R(r,s).

So, the distance d2d^2 can be written in terms of p,q,r,sp,q,r,s.

The point P(p,q)P(p,q) lies on one of the tangents, hence you are able to express qq in terms of pp and mm via the equation y=mx+cy=mx+c.
Likewise, the point R(r,s)R(r,s) lies on the other tangent, hence you are able to express ss in terms of rr and mm.

Substituting these into d2d^2 allows you to express it in terms of p,r,mp,r,m. Now you just need to somehow rewrite p,rp,r in terms of mm.

Have a think... note that these points P,R lie on the curve itself as well.
Reply 13
Original post by RDKGames
From part (a) it should be clear that for any value of m>0m>0, there are two possible cc values. Hence, this is saying that there are two parallel tangents to the curve. One of them touches the curve at P(p,q)P(p,q) and the other at R(r,s)R(r,s).

So, the distance d2d^2 can be written in terms of p,q,r,sp,q,r,s.

The point P(p,q)P(p,q) lies on one of the tangents, hence you are able to express qq in terms of pp and mm via the equation y=mx+cy=mx+c.
Likewise, the point R(r,s)R(r,s) lies on the other tangent, hence you are able to express ss in terms of rr and mm.

Substituting these into d2d^2 allows you to express it in terms of p,r,mp,r,m. Now you just need to somehow rewrite p,rp,r in terms of mm.

Have a think... note that these points P,R lie on the curve itself as well.

I have the equation of the two tangents, and an expression for d^2,

Just struggling to put it all together.

https://ibb.co/n6Mz0Mh
Original post by jc768
I have the equation of the two tangents, and an expression for d^2,

Just struggling to put it all together.

https://ibb.co/n6Mz0Mh


As I said, you can sub in q=pm+2m+12mq=pm + 2 - m + \sqrt{12m} into d2=(rp)2+(sq)2d^2 = (r-p)^2 + (s-q)^2. Likewise with the other one.

Hopefully it's then clear that you need to now focus on expressing p,r in terms of m. I gave you a hint about this in the last post, very last sentence.
Reply 15
Original post by RDKGames
As I said, you can sub in q=pm+2m+12mq=pm + 2 - m + \sqrt{12m} into d2=(rp)2+(sq)2d^2 = (r-p)^2 + (s-q)^2. Likewise with the other one.

Hopefully it's then clear that you need to now focus on expressing p,r in terms of m. I gave you a hint about this in the last post, very last sentence.

Sorry it's just not clear, I have the following unknowns, d, r, p and m so I don't see how I can just express r,p in terms of m

https://ibb.co/CPRVG9p
Original post by jc768
Sorry it's just not clear, I have the following unknowns, d, r, p and m so I don't see how I can just express r,p in terms of m

https://ibb.co/CPRVG9p


The points lie on y=mx+cy=mx+c, and they also lie on y=2x5x1y=\dfrac{2x-5}{x-1}.

Hence, the x coordinates p,rp,r satisfy the equation mx+c=2x5x1mx+c = \dfrac{2x-5}{x-1}, which you had rearranged into the more convenient form;

mx2+(cm2)x+(5c)=0mx^2 + (c-m-2)x + (5-c) = 0
Reply 17
Original post by RDKGames
The points lie on y=mx+cy=mx+c, and they also lie on y=2x5x1y=\dfrac{2x-5}{x-1}.

Hence, the x coordinates p,rp,r satisfy the equation mx+c=2x5x1mx+c = \dfrac{2x-5}{x-1}, which you had rearranged into the more convenient form;

mx2+(cm2)x+(5c)=0mx^2 + (c-m-2)x + (5-c) = 0

Ah yes thank you I was two fixated on the tangents, forgot about the rational function
Reply 18
Original post by RDKGames
The points lie on y=mx+cy=mx+c, and they also lie on y=2x5x1y=\dfrac{2x-5}{x-1}.

Hence, the x coordinates p,rp,r satisfy the equation mx+c=2x5x1mx+c = \dfrac{2x-5}{x-1}, which you had rearranged into the more convenient form;

mx2+(cm2)x+(5c)=0mx^2 + (c-m-2)x + (5-c) = 0

Hold on no I don't understand how this helps at all...
Original post by jc768
Hold on no I don't understand how this helps at all...


Solving this quadratic (which has only one root!) will give you p,rp,r entirely in terms of m depending on the corresponding cc value you sub in.

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