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Gaz031
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#21
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#21
Yeh, all my subjects are accepted by all universities. That is how I define a proper subject. However you woudln't say that I am doing proper subjects. As if it isn't already obvious I take Media. My coursework certainly wasn't that easy.
But the difference is you're actually achieving something and getting/expecting good grades. You're making the most of oppurtunities and working hard.

Is that not what mock exams do, tell you where you need to improve?
They don't contribute towards your final grade. Is it fair for teachers to keep giving coursework back and telling pupils exactly what to do on it, so they can get an A. Are pupils using their initiative there?

Saving for university, what is stopping you from getting a summer job?
I will have a summer job. I'll do anything to bridge the north-south divide as long as i know the end result is going to be worth it.
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frost105
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#22
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(Original post by Gaz031)
Then great! Lets reward people for getting low grades or failing with money for alcohol. I'm sure those working hard in jobs and paying taxes are going to love hearing about that in the news.
Well considering I'm one of the tax paying public I personally think the majority are using it well and that reasoning that students who arent doing academic studies shouldnt get the money is dangerous ground. Who is to say what isnt academic or not.


(Original post by Gaz031)
God forbid we try to change something.
We are in the wirral, we're trying to get it revoked. I'd much rather see the ema money go to getting more apprentiships and assisted work places
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MC
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Gaz031)
Obviously an independent panel should be. It's a problem that we don't have one.
An independant panel should decide whether a subject is good enough to be taught? In that case, this is not a problem with the EMA, but a shake up of schools subjects in general is what you want.

(Original post by Gaz031)
Some people just want leisure. They may not want to work and EMA may seem the easiest way to get money.
Yes, "some" people. I'm sure stats would show most people do not go into further education because of the EMA.


(Original post by Gaz031)
Fact: There are generally more people claiming EMA in poor schools in disadvantaged areas.
And rightfully so. Therefore this is not the problem of the eMA but schools. The running of schools and school policy need to be changed and more government money invested into these poorer areas.

(Original post by Gaz031)
Fact: These schools do not have the capability to monitor said students. My school doesn't have registration in lessons or even a morning register. We are set no homework.
Then that is the fault of the individual school. Most schools, including those I have attended and others I know of, have a formal registration and each child has a tutor/form tutor who moniters them and their progress.

(Original post by Gaz031)
How are these schools supposed to monitor that people are fulfilling criteria?
That's what I'm asking you.

(Original post by Gaz031)
Of course they aren't. I'm just focusing on how EMA is being abused and needs to be altered or tweaked. Of course, some people are putting it to very good use.
You issues against the EMA arise due to fundamental problems with management at your school. The EMA does not apper to be the problem.

(Original post by Gaz031)
I'm just speaking from my experience. However, if even a few are abusing the system it needs to be tweaked.
If they are turning up, and attending lessons, then the money is theirs to be spent, therefore they are not abusing it. If they are not getting high enough grades to satisfy you, then that should be something the individual should consider.

Also, you can't overhaul a system which is largely effective because of the acts of the minority.


(Original post by Gaz031)
We don't need more people going to university.
Why?

(Original post by Gaz031)
Should people, for example, be paid to retake GCSEs while they spend some of the daytime in the pub?
Personal choice. If they want to waste their time doing that, so be it.

(Original post by Gaz031)
Something which is going to be of use to society as well as yourself. You should have achieved a good grade so that you are competent at it.
And what about self-gain or desire to study a subject? Exams are not the only measure of a persons intelligence and ability or competance.
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Gaz031
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#24
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#24
Yes, "some" people. I'm sure stats would show most people do not go into further education because of the EMA.
Don't you think it's a problem if we're giving people the people it's okay to come to college to get money, rather than to do well in examinations?

That's what I'm asking you.
I'm trying to get across the point that it isn't possible to monitor via effort, which is why i'd propose exam results or mock results are used.

You issues against the EMA arise due to fundamental problems with management at your school. The EMA does not apper to be the problem.
Not necessarily the management at my school. Those spending EMA on alcohol don't attend my school. They attend a seperate centre, within the LEA.

If they are turning up, and attending lessons, then the money is theirs to be spent, therefore they are not abusing it. If they are not getting high enough grades to satisfy you, then that should be something the individual should consider.
It's not enough to turn up. They should be working hard and doing work outside of lessons too.

Also, you can't overhaul a system which is largely effective because of the acts of the minority.
You can improve it.

Why?
Too many people are going to university to do degrees that neither they nor the country needs because the goverment is trying to encourage more people to go. Academia and university is not for everyone. There are other options out there.

Personal choice. If they want to waste their time doing that, so be it.
On your money?

And what about self-gain or desire to study a subject? Exams are not the only measure of a persons intelligence and ability or competance.
But arguably they are as good as any other test for competence. If someone really desires to study the subject then they will invest time into it and naturally achieve good results.
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MC
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Gaz031)
Don't you think it's a problem if we're giving people the people it's okay to come to college to get money, rather than to do well in examinations?
Most people go to uni because there is a 70% more chance they will earn more than a non-graduate, and will earn, on average £400,000 more than a non-graduate. Should people be prevented from going to uni because of this?

(Original post by Gaz031)
I'm trying to get across the point that it isn't possible to monitor via effort, which is why i'd propose exam results or mock results are used.
Exam results cannot be the only indication of a persons commitment to their studies. I know of several people who worked continously through their A Levels, more so than other who acheived better than them, and still came out with lower grade.

If you want the system to be changed, you must implement or suggest a more rigourous and fool-proof method of monitiering students, if you can't, then you can't critisise based on the actions of a minority.

(Original post by Gaz031)
Not necessarily the management at my school. Those spending EMA on alcohol don't attend my school. They attend a seperate centre, within the LEA.
I'm simply making the point that your critisisms need to be addressed via better management, not through better regulation of the EMA.

(Original post by Gaz031)
It's not enough to turn up. They should be working hard and doing work outside of lessons too.
There is no possible way to moniter this unless you watch every student who claims EMA both before and during their A Levels.

Also, you assume that all people who spend their EMA on non-academic sources are not working, that is wrong.


(Original post by Gaz031)
Too many people are going to university to do degrees that neither they nor the country needs because the goverment is trying to encourage more people to go. Academia and university is not for everyone. There are other options out there.
Statistics would show that graduate lead a better quality of life, earn more, have more stability and less financial hardship than non-graduates.


(Original post by Gaz031)
On your money?
My taxes are already wasted in several areas which I disapprove of, what difference will it make if it is given to the students claiming EMA? Also you keep forgetting: THE MAJORITY OF EMA CLAIMANTS, DO NOT ABUSE IT. Why deny these people because of the actions of the minority?
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Fleffzilla
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#26
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#26
I get EMA, I work hard, and I get mostly A's and B's, but sometimes a little lower. Are you saying that I should have to work more hours in my part time job (that I already do enough hours in) so that I can afford to go to college, which would probably lower my grades due to too much work and too little time, thus meaning I can't get into the university of my choice. Or do I not deserve to go to university because there's already too many people there?
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Gaz031
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Fleff)
I get EMA, I work hard, and I get mostly A's and B's, but sometimes a little lower. Are you saying that I should have to work more hours in my part time job (that I already do enough hours in) so that I can afford to go to college, which would probably lower my grades due to too much work and too little time, thus meaning I can't get into the university of my choice. Or do I not deserve to go to university because there's already too many people there?
Of course not.

I'm simply saying, in brief:
-The education maintenance allowance system should be tweaked. It should be used to reward those who are working hard and getting good grades. It should not be used to drag people into further education just so they can get the money (which is then abused).
-Only those working hard and achieving good results in their chosen subjects should be awarded money. Those not working hard should not be awarded anything. Those doing poorly despite putting in effort should be allowed to pursue their interests, but also encouraged to specialise in something they are good at.
-Regarding university admissions. We should not be deliberately trying to drag more people into university. It is not for everyone. However, just because somebody does not go to university does not mean they are any worse than someone who did. We should not encourage people into university where they will build up debt and study a qualification which they aren't really interested in and which will not aid them or society in the future.
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Gaz031
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Mad Caddie)
Most people go to uni because there is a 70% more chance they will earn more than a non-graduate, and will earn, on average £400,000 more than a non-graduate. Should people be prevented from going to uni because of this?
I'm not saying anyone should be 'prevented' from going to university. I'm just saying we should not encourage the masses to go in. It is not for everyone and there is no shame in recognising that.

Exam results cannot be the only indication of a persons commitment to their studies. I know of several people who worked continously through their A Levels, more so than other who acheived better than them, and still came out with lower grade.
But surely they still achieved more than an E?

If you want the system to be changed, you must implement or suggest a more rigourous and fool-proof method of monitiering students, if you can't, then you can't critisise based on the actions of a minority.
I'm not stating we should drop the entire system because of the actions of a minority. We should change it, so that abuse is prevented while those who deserve it are rewarded.

I'm simply making the point that your critisisms need to be addressed via better management, not through better regulation of the EMA.
I don't see how schools can be encouraged to prevent pupils from getting EMA. This is after year 10-11 and most pupils now have a good relationship with their teachers.

There is no possible way to moniter this unless you watch every student who claims EMA both before and during their A Levels.
Consider both mock and real exam results.

Also, you assume that all people who spend their EMA on non-academic sources are not working, that is wrong.
But surely it should not be spent on consuming alcohol during the daytime and hoping they will get a grade E. Can we at least agree on this?

Statistics would show that graduate lead a better quality of life, earn more, have more stability and less financial hardship than non-graduates.
We're not talking about the majority. Statistics aren't going to show us much about the future prospects of those studying golf course management at university.
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kellywood_5
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#29
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What really annoys me is that so many people at my school get £30 a week- more than me (I get £20) plus bonuses- for doing a GNVQ Intermediate! They have 5 lessons and 10 frees a week, so only 1/3 of the school week is lessons, compared to my 11 lessons and 4 frees. I use all my fees, and quite often break and lunch as well, to get my work done, whereas they have so little work that they just doss about on the Internet, go down town or go home. While they spend all their money on computer games, I'm saving all mine for uni and spending some of it on textbooks and stationery. I should also mention that 1 boy I know who is doing GNVQ Intermediate Business Studies did Business and Economics for GCSE and got an E! He didn't even get a respectable pass and now he's doing a GNVQ in it? Why?! I can't help but think that students like him would be far better off doing some kind of training, and the only reason they come to school is because they get paid for and they can't be bothered to get a job.
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Gaz031
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#30
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#30
(Original post by kellywood_5)
What really annoys me is that so many people at my school get £30 a week- more than me (I get £20) plus bonuses- for doing a GNVQ Intermediate! They have 5 lessons and 10 frees a week, so only 1/3 of the school week is lessons, compared to my 11 lessons and 4 frees. I use all my fees, and quite often break and lunch as well, to get my work done, whereas they have so little work that they just doss about on the Internet, go down town or go home. While they spend all their money on computer games, I'm saving all mine for uni and spending some of it on textbooks and stationery. I should also mention that 1 boy I know who is doing GNVQ Intermediate Business Studies did Business and Economics for GCSE and got an E! He didn't even get a respectable pass and now he's doing a GNVQ in it? Why?! I can't help but think that students like him would be far better off doing some kind of training, and the only reason they come to school is because they get paid for and they can't be bothered to get a job.
I can identify with many of those thoughts but you've worded things much better than i have. Still, that's a language student doing what an language student does best.
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kellywood_5
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#31
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(Original post by Gaz031)
I can identify with many of those thoughts but you've worded things much better than i have. Still, that's a language student doing what an language student does best.
Lol well I try :p:
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Mishael
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#32
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Too many people are going to university to do degrees that neither they nor the country needs because the goverment is trying to encourage more people to go. Academia and university is not for everyone. There are other options out there.
My sixth form offers a lot of vocational courses, like the Cache certificate in childcare, and hairdressing apprenticeships. Those students get EMA too. Are you suggesting that only students doing academic subjects get EMA? Afterall, the world needs hairdressers and childminders as well as doctors and lawyers.
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AT82
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#33
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As far as I am concerned EMA has been developed for one person, to get people off the of the streets and onto GNVQ Foundation courses instead. My old college MANCAT never used to run the GNVQ Foundation course because there was no demand, as soon as EMA was introduced there was huge damand and there was 30 people in at my campus alone doing foundation. Foundation is easier than GCSEs, the vast majority of these students failed it completly thus EMA was a complete waste of government money, for the majority fo GNVQ foundation students their job prospects wont; be improved.

I think A level students (regardless of GCSEs, you must have decent GCSEs to do be able to do A levels etc) should be entitled to some kind of bursery if you need it, this would be means tested like EMA. Maybe intermeidate and foundation students could also apply but it won't be as easy to get as EMA.

There is a huge huge problem with EMA and I have witnessed this first hand.

Hair dressing courses like that actually lead to a proper job (unlike foundation GNVQ) should be perhaps entitled to somthing I am not sure. Shouldn't these be taught under modern aprentiships anyway?
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MC
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#34
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(Original post by Gaz031)
I can identify with many of those thoughts but you've worded things much better than i have. Still, that's a language student doing what an language student does best.
Isn't kellywood the exact type of person you are venting your anger at as she is doing a "mickey mouse" course?
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MC
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#35
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(Original post by Gaz031)
I'm not saying anyone should be 'prevented' from going to university. I'm just saying we should not encourage the masses to go in. It is not for everyone and there is no shame in recognising that.
You cannot be the judge of that. You seem to think that any courses which are not traditonally academic are worthless, but it is far from it. I know of people studying media and film at university, subjects considered mickey mouse ones, and they all say that in terms of workload and general difficulty, their degree is no different to say a science one. If this means they leave uni with a recognised qualification, which will aid them throughout life, something which will in itself boost the economy, is that not a good thing?

(Original post by Gaz031)
But surely they still achieved more than an E?
Yes, they all did. But you must acknowledge that not all EMA claimants are getting E's. That is not fact, it is wrong.

(Original post by Gaz031)
I'm not stating we should drop the entire system because of the actions of a minority. We should change it, so that abuse is prevented while those who deserve it are rewarded.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. The money, according to government guidelines IS NOT being abused. It is there for the student to spends as they wish, provided they meet the criteria. If the student is not meeting the criteria, and still receiving the EMA, this is down to poor managment on the behalf of the school.

(Original post by Gaz031)
I don't see how schools can be encouraged to prevent pupils from getting EMA. This is after year 10-11 and most pupils now have a good relationship with their teachers.
The school as an individual body has a set of standard guideline and procedures. This body, normally the governing body, will have little or no pupil contact, and they will not be biased toward different students. The students and teachers have a formal relationship, and whether this is good or bad, if a child qualifies according to government criteria, they have every right to claim EMA.

(Original post by Gaz031)
But surely it should not be spent on consuming alcohol during the daytime and hoping they will get a grade E. Can we at least agree on this?
Yes, but not all EMA claimants are spending it on alcohol. Are you?

(Original post by Gaz031)
We're not talking about the majority.
Then you have no argument. You cannot condemn the majority by the actions of the minority. Thousands of people commit benefit fraud every year, should we overhaul this system, which is largely effective, and make it more difficult for people to claim benefits who are genuine, I think not.

(Original post by Gaz031)
Statistics aren't going to show us much about the future prospects of those studying golf course management at university.
And how many people actually study a degree such as this?
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Gaz031
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Mishael)
My sixth form offers a lot of vocational courses, like the Cache certificate in childcare, and hairdressing apprenticeships. Those students get EMA too. Are you suggesting that only students doing academic subjects get EMA? Afterall, the world needs hairdressers and childminders as well as doctors and lawyers.
I'm stating that those do a lot of hard work and achieving to a high standard should get the money.
However, if they are doing a vocational course they shouldn't get EMA also if they are being payed due to an apprenticeship.
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frost105
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#37
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(Original post by amazingtrade)


Hair dressing courses like that actually lead to a proper job (unlike foundation GNVQ) should be perhaps entitled to somthing I am not sure. Shouldn't these be taught under modern aprentiships anyway?
Unfortunatly yes it should s should quite a lot of jobs but our government seems to think its much more important to shove people into higher education than to set up decent apprentiships and work placements. Prsonally I would rather remove the EMA and put it to assisting businesses to setting up apprentiships.
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Gaz031
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#38
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#38
Isn't kellywood the exact type of person you are venting your anger at as she is doing a "mickey mouse" course?
I'd hardly deem French, English lit or History as mickey mouse courses. Don't confuse 'mickey mouse' with the arts.
The point i'm trying to drive home is that in its present state EMA is bringing lazy people into the system, who either do pathetically easy qualifications or don't put the effort in and get mediocre grades. Them staying at sixth form for the money does nobody any good at all.

You cannot be the judge of that. You seem to think that any courses which are not traditonally academic are worthless, but it is far from it. I know of people studying media and film at university, subjects considered mickey mouse ones, and they all say that in terms of workload and general difficulty, their degree is no different to say a science one. If this means they leave uni with a recognised qualification, which will aid them throughout life, something which will in itself boost the economy, is that not a good thing?
Obviously they're going to say the workload is difficult, as that will seem difficult relative to them. They won't have been working until 1AM learning P5 etc. Just because the degree is officially recognised doesn't mean employers regard it similarly.

Yes, they all did. But you must acknowledge that not all EMA claimants are getting E's. That is not fact, it is wrong.
I acknowledge that. Of course they aren't. We are talking about a smaller portion of people abusing the system. These are people that I evidently know more of than others.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. The money, according to government guidelines IS NOT being abused. It is there for the student to spends as they wish, provided they meet the criteria. If the student is not meeting the criteria, and still receiving the EMA, this is down to poor managment on the behalf of the school.
The criteria means nothing and the whole thing needs to be tweaked. Students get their EMA regardless of their effort, behaviour or attendance.

Yes, but not all EMA claimants are spending it on alcohol. Are you?
As above, we're talking about a minority.

Then you have no argument. You cannot condemn the majority by the actions of the minority. Thousands of people commit benefit fraud every year, should we overhaul this system, which is largely effective, and make it more difficult for people to claim benefits who are genuine, I think not.
It might be serving some but we should make it better. If we were not to alter things because of a minority then we would still be in a racist, homophobic tyranic state.
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Chrism
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#39
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I could have got the EMA, I was just too lazy to fill in the forms and my Dad doesn't like giving anyone his earnings details unless he definitely has to. Shame really, £30 a week would have more than paid for Friday nights out.
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AT82
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#40
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(Original post by Chrism)
I could have got the EMA, I was just too lazy to fill in the forms and my Dad doesn't like giving anyone his earnings details unless he definitely has to. Shame really, £30 a week would have more than paid for Friday nights out.
Unless you're parents earn very little money you would not have got £30 a week, most of the people on my course were from very modest working class backgrounds and only got £15 a week.

The system is wrong a total sham, like frost said the money would be better spend on modern appeceniships. I know some of the money is going this way. The government are vritualy bribing graduates to setup businesses in east Manchester onthe condition they employ local scallies to fix the unemployment rates. I may take advantage of this Its just a matter of finding none scallies in a scally area who happen to be unemployted.
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