The great '2:2 will leave you unemployed' rubbish. Do classifications even matter?
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Lack of determination will leave you unemployed.
Original post by MrHappy_J
You graduated from Oxford, you have nothing to worry about.
Maybe back in the day but the Oxbridge name alone doesn't get you far in most jobs these days
Original post by wanderlust.xx
I wholeheartedly agree. I have in fact attempted to prepare for this over the course of my final year, attempting to make myself more employable and taking more responsibilities on whilst keeping on top of my work.
I guess what I'm saying is, why bother with the work at all? Why not just do a bunch of ECA's, a shed load of experience and get a 2:2? That'd be no different from working hard and getting a first, except you don't need to work hard.
I guess what I'm saying is, why bother with the work at all? Why not just do a bunch of ECA's, a shed load of experience and get a 2:2? That'd be no different from working hard and getting a first, except you don't need to work hard.
I'm not talking about ECs; I'm talking about actual, relevant experience. Unless the EC in question is absolutely fantastic or highly original then I wouldn't bother if you think it's going to get you a job.
The people I know on track for Desmonds and have well paying job offers nearly all have relevant experience, and plenty of it.
Unless it's a computer that automatically rejects 2:2 applications, you'll probably be fine applying for positions with a 2:2 and lots of relevant experience. A proven ability to work and relevant skills and experience is worth much more than a 2:1 and nothing, or a few typical student ECs.
This article is very similar to those who didn't go to university at all. They're using exceptional cases to ensure graduates with 2:2s don't feel discouraged about their degree classification. Of course they'll be instances where people with 2:2s secure amazing jobs and those with 1sts don't, however this isn't a rule of thumb. It's all to do with probability.
You have to ensure that you do the best you can in order to you boost your chances of being successful.
To say getting >2:1 is pointless is completely untrue. You've based your judgment on a single article. Many postgraduate courses and employers require at least a 2:1s. Getting a 2:2 doesn't mean you're a failure it just means that you may have to jump over a bigger hurdle.
You have to ensure that you do the best you can in order to you boost your chances of being successful.
To say getting >2:1 is pointless is completely untrue. You've based your judgment on a single article. Many postgraduate courses and employers require at least a 2:1s. Getting a 2:2 doesn't mean you're a failure it just means that you may have to jump over a bigger hurdle.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Stefan1991
I know three people who graduated one year from a good uni with very similar degrees.
One got a 2:1, one got a 2:2 and the other got a 3rd.
One earns enough to live from a mid level company and took almost a year to find a job.
One earns quite a good amount, has a company car and works for a blue chip company.
One earns a six digit salary, has their own secretary, a personal limo and a large expenses account.
Guess which one got a 3rd?
One got a 2:1, one got a 2:2 and the other got a 3rd.
One earns enough to live from a mid level company and took almost a year to find a job.
One earns quite a good amount, has a company car and works for a blue chip company.
One earns a six digit salary, has their own secretary, a personal limo and a large expenses account.
Guess which one got a 3rd?
The one that earns a six digit salary?
He was probably too busy running his own business at the time...
Original post by Stefan1991
I know three people who graduated one year from a good uni with very similar degrees.
One got a 2:1, one got a 2:2 and the other got a 3rd.
One earns enough to live from a mid level company and took almost a year to find a job.
One earns quite a good amount, has a company car and works for a blue chip company.
One earns a six digit salary, has their own secretary, a personal limo and a large expenses account.
Guess which one got a 3rd?
One got a 2:1, one got a 2:2 and the other got a 3rd.
One earns enough to live from a mid level company and took almost a year to find a job.
One earns quite a good amount, has a company car and works for a blue chip company.
One earns a six digit salary, has their own secretary, a personal limo and a large expenses account.
Guess which one got a 3rd?
cool story bro
Original post by MrHappy_J
You graduated from Oxford, you have nothing to worry about.
I would prefer a 2.1 from quite a few other universities though. A 2.2 from Oxford wont get you preferential treatment, the Oxford element does start to make some ground up when comparing to a 2.1 candidate from a worse university, but not as much as you're suggesting.
Original post by Smack
What does a degree classification have to do with one's ability to work in the real world?
I know several people on my course had no problems securing jobs with some of the biggest companies the world with 2:2s. Experience counts for far more.
I know several people on my course had no problems securing jobs with some of the biggest companies the world with 2:2s. Experience counts for far more.
A graduate with a first with work experience is more likely to get the job than a graduate with 2:2 with work experience. Work experience is more attainable and can always be enhanced. However, your undergraduate degree classification is permanently written on your certificate.
A good degree classification reveals traits that are desirable to many employers:
-Great work ethic
-Time management
-Commitment
-Ambition
-Knowledge
-Ability to work under pressure
-Ability to work with others
The list goes on...
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Smack
What does a degree classification have to do with one's ability to work in the real world?
I know several people on my course had no problems securing jobs with some of the biggest companies the world with 2:2s. Experience counts for far more.
I know several people on my course had no problems securing jobs with some of the biggest companies the world with 2:2s. Experience counts for far more.
And how exactly does one get experience? You apply to jobs and internships, which you then get passed over for because you have a 2:2.
And degree classification has to do with how smart you are and how hard you work at university. I would imagine that both things might have some teeny tiny bearing on how you do in the working world. Don't you?
I think the bottom line of the article is that getting a 2:2 doesn't mean that you cannot have
a successful career.A 2:1 or a 1st may secure a good entry level possition at a good company but that's just about it.Basically it is a good start to get a first job,but after a 1+ working experience everyone will focus on your achievements, yor references etc. and nobody will care about your grade. Plus nobody gets promoted based on their grades.
a successful career.A 2:1 or a 1st may secure a good entry level possition at a good company but that's just about it.Basically it is a good start to get a first job,but after a 1+ working experience everyone will focus on your achievements, yor references etc. and nobody will care about your grade. Plus nobody gets promoted based on their grades.
Original post by geetar
Degree classification does matter, just not as much as people say it does. You aren't guaranteed to waltz into a job with a first, you aren't doomed to life as a paint-huffing Jeremy Kyle guest with a 2:2.
Who are these people who've said it's the be all and end all of everything? Because I've never heard anyone say that.
Original post by T-Toe
A graduate with a first with work experience is more likely to get the job than a graduate with 2:2 with work experience. Work experience is more attainable and can always be enhanced. However, your undergraduate degree classification is permanently written on your certificate.
Depends entirely on the company - I had an offer from a company that had no problems with rejecting candidates with firsts and experience if they didn't think they'd be a good fit. Almost everyone they gave offers to were 2:2 candidates. I currently feel like a dick for turning it down... £32K plus bonuses.
Your degree classification is printed on your certificate but no-one's going to give a damn about that after your first job.
A good degree classification reveals trails that are desirable to many employers:
-Great work ethic
-Time management
-Commitment
-Ambition
-Knowledge
-Ability to work under pressure
-Ability to work with others
The list goes on...
It doesn't necessarily show any of that at all, which is why many employers don't really give a damn about it.
Original post by wanderlust.xx
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2012/apr/17/what-students-do-if-their-grades-are-low
Having read this, I was not surprised. I have an exam tomorrow but quite frankly having read the comments, why bother?
Why should anyone bother trying to work hard in education? I feel like I've just completely waste 3 years of my life working my butt off for a first/2:1, and I feel like my hard working friends have too.
Why should we have worked hard and gotten a 2:1/first, when we could have quite literally just ****ed about, done no work, enjoyed ourselves for 3 years drinking ourselves stupid into the whee hours of the morning and just studied a day before the exam so we didn't fail?
Why not just do that, if anything above a 2:2 won't help at all towards career success?
I thought that working hard and getting a 2:1 would at the very least make it easier to get a job. Hell, I would have thought that a 2:1 in something as respected as a maths degree might get me a second glance.
Having read this article though, perhaps I should never have bothered.
Having read this, I was not surprised. I have an exam tomorrow but quite frankly having read the comments, why bother?
Why should anyone bother trying to work hard in education? I feel like I've just completely waste 3 years of my life working my butt off for a first/2:1, and I feel like my hard working friends have too.
Why should we have worked hard and gotten a 2:1/first, when we could have quite literally just ****ed about, done no work, enjoyed ourselves for 3 years drinking ourselves stupid into the whee hours of the morning and just studied a day before the exam so we didn't fail?
Why not just do that, if anything above a 2:2 won't help at all towards career success?
I thought that working hard and getting a 2:1 would at the very least make it easier to get a job. Hell, I would have thought that a 2:1 in something as respected as a maths degree might get me a second glance.
Having read this article though, perhaps I should never have bothered.
I'm sure someone else will already have pointed this part of the article out, but here it is anyway;
"I've heard people say that getting a 2:2 didn't affect them, that it spurred them on to work harder. But the reason success stories are told and retold – of the high-flying ex-dropout or the tycoon who triumphed despite a poor academic record – is precisely because they're unusual."
Also what makes you think the rest of us didn't just mess about, do no work, enjoyed ourselves, drink ourselves stupid into the whee hours of the morning and just studied the day before the exam? I sacrificed a first to do the things above, well worth it.
Original post by Smack
Almost everyone they gave offers to were 2:2 candidates.
Not to argue or anything, but why did this company choose 2.2 candidates over 1st candidates? I can totally appreciate that sometimes there are people with better work experience or that are superior at any number of competencies, but it sounds like you're saying they actively favoured 2.2s? Or did I misunderstand?
Just interested
Getting a 2:2 does not mean you will not get a job, it just means will be harder.
I will strongly suggest you get a 2:1 or above as the employment market is hard as it is and you want to give yourself a good chance.
I found final year challenging but had it in my head that I must achieve a 2:1 Minimum and glad I did because most jobs I have applied to required 2:1 or above and it felt good on graduation day knowing all my hard work has paid off.
I will strongly suggest you get a 2:1 or above as the employment market is hard as it is and you want to give yourself a good chance.
I found final year challenging but had it in my head that I must achieve a 2:1 Minimum and glad I did because most jobs I have applied to required 2:1 or above and it felt good on graduation day knowing all my hard work has paid off.
Original post by M1011
Not to argue or anything, but why did this company choose 2.2 candidates over 1st candidates? I can totally appreciate that sometimes there are people with better work experience or that are superior at any number of competencies, but it sounds like you're saying they actively favoured 2.2s? Or did I misunderstand?
Just interested
Just interested
It's all about how well you'd fit into the organisation. It turns out that the 2:2 candidates were better able to demonstrate that they'd fit into the company than the candidates with 1st class degrees. I wouldn't say there was any favouring - in fact degree classification was only mentioned on the offer letter i.e. this offer is conditional of you achieving at least a 2nd class honours degree.
Original post by Smack
Depends entirely on the company - I had an offer from a company that had no problems with rejecting candidates with firsts and experience if they didn't think they'd be a good fit. Almost everyone they gave offers to were 2:2 candidates. I currently feel like a dick for turning it down... £32K plus bonuses.
Your degree classification is printed on your certificate but no-one's going to give a damn about that after your first job.
It doesn't necessarily show any of that at all, which is why many employers don't really give a damn about it.
Your degree classification is printed on your certificate but no-one's going to give a damn about that after your first job.
It doesn't necessarily show any of that at all, which is why many employers don't really give a damn about it.
Due to the country's economic climate,a vast majority of companies go by a process of elimination. If you don't cut the mustard you're out. It's better to be safe than sorry.
Oh so I suppose 2:2 graduates are more likely to bare these qualities?
.You're acting as if the your first job is completely insignificant/irrelevant. The first job is probably your most important job as it's the foundation to any higher positions you may have in future. You're seriously deluded if you think employers don't give a damn about your degree classification.
(edited 11 years ago)
It makes sense in some ways - degrees are typically only signalling mechanisms, and a lot of learning is done on the job. I'm doing engineering and even though that's a vocational degree I'm pretty sure I'll do at least as much on-the-job learning, as I did in uni.
I think for a lot of firms they're not necessarily interested in a genius (in my opinion there's not many graduate jobs out there that actually require you to be that smart tbh), but someone who has the potential to learn, along with the soft skills to settle into the corporate world well. In that respect 'academic success' isn't really as big a factor as you'd think. At the very least, those soft skills / competancies are just as relevant for many jobs. Anecdotally, I've been fortunate enough to get on a graduate scheme and although the employer is one of the top 3 in my field, the job offer they've given me is only conditional on me passing my degree (i.e. a third and upwards), because they're much more interested in company 'fit' and I guess, have a lot more faith in their application system than many other companies.
Having said that, I think you'd have to be terribly naive to read that article and to not still aim for a 2.1 and above. It's pretty competitive out there at times, and really, everything helps - whether it be a 1st in your degree, having connections, or being less selective in your job applications
I think for a lot of firms they're not necessarily interested in a genius (in my opinion there's not many graduate jobs out there that actually require you to be that smart tbh), but someone who has the potential to learn, along with the soft skills to settle into the corporate world well. In that respect 'academic success' isn't really as big a factor as you'd think. At the very least, those soft skills / competancies are just as relevant for many jobs. Anecdotally, I've been fortunate enough to get on a graduate scheme and although the employer is one of the top 3 in my field, the job offer they've given me is only conditional on me passing my degree (i.e. a third and upwards), because they're much more interested in company 'fit' and I guess, have a lot more faith in their application system than many other companies.
Having said that, I think you'd have to be terribly naive to read that article and to not still aim for a 2.1 and above. It's pretty competitive out there at times, and really, everything helps - whether it be a 1st in your degree, having connections, or being less selective in your job applications
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd
Maybe back in the day but the Oxbridge name alone doesn't get you far in most jobs these days
My dad went to Oxford and has on several occasions been told that he was offered an interview solely or predominantly because he went to Oxford. Jobs of this nature are sufficiently dense that any one Oxbridge graduate can expect to encounter several of them, unless my dad has worked in a field particularly oriented towards Oxbridge. As it happens he has spent most of his life working in IT departments of large companies, which I don't think are known for this kind of bias.
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