Are too many people applying to university?
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Original post by nulli tertius
So HESA statistics are dubious are they?
They are Official Statistics so why don't you present your evidence of this to the Director General of the UK Statistics Authority.
http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/assessment/about-monitoring-and-assessment/head-of-assessment/index.html
They are Official Statistics so why don't you present your evidence of this to the Director General of the UK Statistics Authority.
http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/assessment/about-monitoring-and-assessment/head-of-assessment/index.html
By dubious I mean that their internal validity is questionable.
Original post by Juichiro
By dubious I mean that their internal validity is questionable.
HESA says that there were 1803840 undergraduate students in higher education in 2012/3. HESA says that there were 66075 part-time academic staff in higher education in 2013/4. Do you think either of those figures are wrong? Are they too high? Are they too low? Is it meaningless to try and count those figures once a year?
Yes, although it's not really the fault of the students. It's largely because of the fact that we live in a system that teaches students from a very young age that the only way to be successful is by going to university, and also because so many jobs these days require a degree for no particularly good reason.
Original post by OhGod
Agreed.
What should we be doing to stop these mickey - mouse courses?
What should we be doing to stop these mickey - mouse courses?
We should stop pushing the idea that in order to get anything out of life you need to go to University. People who do not require a degree for the career that they want to go in to should not be encouraged to go to University but should instead be pushed towards either going straight into a job or going through an apprenticeship where they can actually learn things which will benefit them in the long run.
"Soft" courses should also in my opinion be condensed down to 2 years instead of 3, because the amount of content covered in those courses and the difficulty level is nowhere near high enough to justify it being a 3 year course, and if it was compressed to 2 then the amount of time that people had to invest in their course each week would be high enough that it would put off a lot of people who wanted to go to University purely for the "student lifestyle", and those who did still go for that would be less likely to pass their first year if they did laze around without doing any work and so after a year would be out of Uni.
I just think that the simple rule should be that if your degree is completely necessary for your chosen career path then you should go to University. If however you can go into the same career, at the same starting point, with or without a degree then you should not be going to University, you should be going straight in to work.
It used to be 5% of the population, who were genuinely academic but it is now 50% which might account for the universities which used to be polytechnics, such as Northampton (I think). Also did anyone know that when the monks from Oxford went to Cambridge they were going to move to Northampton but were rejected lol
Original post by nulli tertius
HESA says that there were 1803840 undergraduate students in higher education in 2012/3. HESA says that there were 66075 part-time academic staff in higher education in 2013/4. Do you think either of those figures are wrong? Are they too high? Are they too low? Is it meaningless to try and count those figures once a year?
I didn't mean that all their stats are dubious. Only the ones related to measuring students' destination and similar.
Original post by Chlorophile
Yes, although it's not really the fault of the students. It's largely because of the fact that we live in a system that teaches students from a very young age that the only way to be successful is by going to university, and also because so many jobs these days require a degree for no particularly good reason.
Is it that they require a degree or that they require a maturity not usually displayed by the average 18 year old?
At one time we would have employed a 6 year old to scare birds away from the crops. Later, we would have a 10 year old re-tie threads on a power-loom. Later still, a 14 year old would deliver bread on a bike and a 16 year old might be a skilled tradesman's "mate".
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Juichiro
I didn't mean that all their stats are dubious. Only the ones related to measuring students' destination and similar.
The Longitudinal Study which surveys what students are doing 21/2 years after graduation is perceived as being one of the best data sources on employment in the country.
Original post by nulli tertius
The Longitudinal Study which surveys what students are doing 21/2 years after graduation is perceived as being one of the best data sources on employment in the country.
I trust facts not perceptions. Unless they belong to people working in the field. Things is that if some unis do promote all this students data collection more than others that will affect students responses.
Original post by Juichiro
I trust facts not perceptions. Unless they belong to people working in the field. Things is that if some unis do promote all this students data collection more than others that will affect students responses.
Universities aren't involved in this process. The most they can do is put an exhortation to participate in the alumni magazine and try to keep their contact database as up to date as possible. A commercial firm, IFF, is contracted to do the Longitudinal Study.
The criticisms you seem to be making seem rather to be directed at the First DHLE Survey. Universities collect that data. Universities are incentivised for high return rates. I am not aware of any criticism about the accuracy of data between universities. Most of the criticism concerns the overall point (or lack of it) of the exercise given that entrance routes to different careers vary so much. The intending lawyer may be doing an LLM to kill time because she has been unable to secure a training contract. The intending librarian may be doing an MA in librarianship because that is the correct route into librarianship. The intending accountant is working for an accountancy firm. Two out of the three graduates are underway with their careers; one is not, but how do you extract that from the DLHE?
Original post by nulli tertius
Universities aren't involved in this process. The most they can do is put an exhortation to participate in the alumni magazine and try to keep their contact database as up to date as possible. A commercial firm, IFF, is contracted to do the Longitudinal Study.
The criticisms you seem to be making seem rather to be directed at the First DHLE Survey. Universities collect that data. Universities are incentivised for high return rates. I am not aware of any criticism about the accuracy of data between universities. Most of the criticism concerns the overall point (or lack of it) of the exercise given that entrance routes to different careers vary so much. The intending lawyer may be doing an LLM to kill time because she has been unable to secure a training contract. The intending librarian may be doing an MA in librarianship because that is the correct route into librarianship. The intending accountant is working for an accountancy firm. Two out of the three graduates are underway with their careers; one is not, but how do you extract that from the DLHE?
The criticisms you seem to be making seem rather to be directed at the First DHLE Survey. Universities collect that data. Universities are incentivised for high return rates. I am not aware of any criticism about the accuracy of data between universities. Most of the criticism concerns the overall point (or lack of it) of the exercise given that entrance routes to different careers vary so much. The intending lawyer may be doing an LLM to kill time because she has been unable to secure a training contract. The intending librarian may be doing an MA in librarianship because that is the correct route into librarianship. The intending accountant is working for an accountancy firm. Two out of the three graduates are underway with their careers; one is not, but how do you extract that from the DLHE?
My apologies. I was indeed targeting the DHLE survey. Would appreciate to hear your response to this.
I really hate the mentality of "we should stop people from doing mickey mouse degrees"....who are you to stop people gaining an education? If somebody wants to work in fashion, let them do a degree in fashion!
A friend of mine studied Fashion Management at London Met and is doing better than any of my top 20 friends are doing. You cannot get managerial jobs without a degree, full-stop. "Working your way up" or doing an apprenticeship will only ever get you a certain distance nowadays, degrees are what employers expect regardless of whether it's Travel and Tourism or Rocket Science.
A friend of mine studied Fashion Management at London Met and is doing better than any of my top 20 friends are doing. You cannot get managerial jobs without a degree, full-stop. "Working your way up" or doing an apprenticeship will only ever get you a certain distance nowadays, degrees are what employers expect regardless of whether it's Travel and Tourism or Rocket Science.
(edited 9 years ago)
If I consider that the number of apprenticeships is decreased in comparison to university places which are taken, yes, it is. I think apprenticeships have not a high appreciation nowadays. That seems to be bad in my opinion, firstly an apprenticeship enables people to get experiences in a job, more than in a study which consists of too much theories and too little practices, secondly its the best chance to earn money and to get a profession at the same time, thirdly after the profession no one is so much dependent on money to finance the fee, fourthly if someone wants to break the study off, there is still a job in which someone earns an income, so this person is not so much dependent on studying.
(edited 9 years ago)
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