Trans Women To Be Allowed On Labour’s All-Women Shortlists
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Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Nope. That defeats the point of a shortlist.
Well since the point of a shortlist is discrimination, is that really such a bad idea?
Original post by Napp
I'm sure this just makes a mockery of the battle women have waged for equal treatment.
All women shortlists? Yeah I agree. Dispicable things, saying women can't compete without an artifical leg up.
Original post by limetang
All women shortlists? Yeah I agree. Dispicable things, saying women can't compete without an artifical leg up.
I think the issue isn't the existence of the all-female shortlists (some people are for them, some against) - but that women are on competing against people who say they are women.
This isn't anything resembling equality.
Some thoughts:
I don't at all accept the feminist argument for all-female shortlists, but I think perhaps it needs to be broken down here.
Presumably the entire basis for the argument for all female shortlists, such as it is, is that a woman's experience is different from a man's. Women are nurtured differently, exposed to different influences, and generally socially conditioned differently from men, the argument presumably runs. In any case, this is an argument I've seen made on numerous occasions, in the rare case in which anyone has bothered to set out clear reasoning on the subject.
If this is right then whether you say you are presently a woman isn't really the point. The point is surely whether you can identify with the experience that the feminists identify, which I think is in line with the above. This is what puts you into the class of people whose interests need to be defended by way of all-female shortlists, and it is further necessary to set a meaningful example about individuals who have lived through this experience being able to go into politics (and general positions of leadership).
If you live as a man until you are 40 years old, at that point start to identify as a woman, and run for office, whatever else might be said about your position socially, it can certainly be said that you have not meaningfully shared the female experience that the feminists identify and wish to change.
You may disagree with that reasoning but there's clearly more to the argument than any kind of 'phobia' or hatred for trans folks.
What makes this argument actually quite grimly amusing to watch is that nobody appears to have talked through the arguments for both sides. What we have instead is a largely identitarian fight with a bit of thoughtless virtue signalling thrown in. It's a reminder that almost no-one, especially within the left, is able to have a grown-up conversation anymore.
As a slight aside, I think it's also worth noting that there's something of an incongruity in (a) insisting that gender is a significant enough factor in society that a gender group requires special protection in the form, here, of all-female shortlists, and (b), at the same time, maintaining that gender is nothing more than how a person happens to describe himself at any given moment.
I don't at all accept the feminist argument for all-female shortlists, but I think perhaps it needs to be broken down here.
Presumably the entire basis for the argument for all female shortlists, such as it is, is that a woman's experience is different from a man's. Women are nurtured differently, exposed to different influences, and generally socially conditioned differently from men, the argument presumably runs. In any case, this is an argument I've seen made on numerous occasions, in the rare case in which anyone has bothered to set out clear reasoning on the subject.
If this is right then whether you say you are presently a woman isn't really the point. The point is surely whether you can identify with the experience that the feminists identify, which I think is in line with the above. This is what puts you into the class of people whose interests need to be defended by way of all-female shortlists, and it is further necessary to set a meaningful example about individuals who have lived through this experience being able to go into politics (and general positions of leadership).
If you live as a man until you are 40 years old, at that point start to identify as a woman, and run for office, whatever else might be said about your position socially, it can certainly be said that you have not meaningfully shared the female experience that the feminists identify and wish to change.
You may disagree with that reasoning but there's clearly more to the argument than any kind of 'phobia' or hatred for trans folks.
What makes this argument actually quite grimly amusing to watch is that nobody appears to have talked through the arguments for both sides. What we have instead is a largely identitarian fight with a bit of thoughtless virtue signalling thrown in. It's a reminder that almost no-one, especially within the left, is able to have a grown-up conversation anymore.
As a slight aside, I think it's also worth noting that there's something of an incongruity in (a) insisting that gender is a significant enough factor in society that a gender group requires special protection in the form, here, of all-female shortlists, and (b), at the same time, maintaining that gender is nothing more than how a person happens to describe himself at any given moment.
Original post by Good bloke
The solution to both these problems seems clear: they should take their pick. They seem to have plenty of people strong enough to wield such implements.
Jeremy Corbyn's face, in the picture of him with the chap called Sophie Cook in the OP's link, seems to indicate he may not be fully on board with being photographed alongside attractive females.
Jeremy Corbyn's face, in the picture of him with the chap called Sophie Cook in the OP's link, seems to indicate he may not be fully on board with being photographed alongside attractive females.
The forum never lets me rep your posts.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
I think it's also worth noting that there's something of an incongruity in (a) insisting that gender is a significant enough factor in society that a gender group requires special protection in the form, here, of all-female shortlists, and (b), at the same time, maintaining that gender is nothing more than how a person happens to describe himself at any given moment.
This is an extremely important point. It appears that some people cannot make their minds up.
One wonders how many of these transpeople suddenly erupting into mainstream politics are doing so after a background of political endeavour as non-transpeople, and how many have simply found a convenient bandwagon to leap on in their narcissistic quest for the proverbial fifteen minutes.
What are short-lists exactly?
Original post by the bear
there is no reason why Labour should not designate a seat to have an all-trans shortlist. Possibly in a former mining area such as Sedgefield or Chesterfield.
What are short-lists exactly?
Original post by Maths_English
What are short-lists exactly?
it is a list of people applying for a job. originally there is a long list; this is whittled down to a short list from which the winner is drawn.
Original post by the bear
it is a list of people applying for a job. originally there is a long list; this is whittled down to a short list from which the winner is drawn.
So women are being treated as if they are disabled?
Original post by Maths_English
So women are being treated as if they are disabled?
You might say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
Original post by Good bloke
You might say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
Well I'm disabled myself so I'm familiar with this type of behaviour and while it makes sense for us since we tend to be below average intelligence/aren't able bodied and thus need the care and guaranteed spots, this doesn't make sense for women.
By doing this you are saying women and other people who are on these shortlists that they cannot compete with men without help which makes no sense as women are perfectly capable of competing for the same spot as men.
Original post by Maths_English
women are perfectly capable of competing for the same spot as men.
Then you'll applaud Labour's intention to allow able-bodied men to take the women's shortlist places.
Original post by Good bloke
Then you'll applaud Labour's intention to allow able-bodied men to take the women's shortlist places.
Still a shortlist though and thus treating them as if they cannot make it on their own.
Is there a shortlist for disabled people?
No.
Women have different issues from men, and a trans woman probably doesn't understand them all, as she hasn't grown up experiencing them all, so a trans woman is a trans woman, not a real woman.
Maybe have a trans woman shortlist too?
Women have different issues from men, and a trans woman probably doesn't understand them all, as she hasn't grown up experiencing them all, so a trans woman is a trans woman, not a real woman.
Maybe have a trans woman shortlist too?
Original post by Good bloke
One wonders how many of these transpeople suddenly erupting into mainstream politics are doing so after a background of political endeavour as non-transpeople, and how many have simply found a convenient bandwagon to leap on in their narcissistic quest for the proverbial fifteen minutes.
One wonders how many of these transpeople suddenly erupting into mainstream politics are doing so after a background of political endeavour as non-transpeople, and how many have simply found a convenient bandwagon to leap on in their narcissistic quest for the proverbial fifteen minutes.
Idiots wonder that for sure.
Original post by Maths_English
So women are being treated as if they are disabled?
why are you asking me ?
Original post by Hopefulone1
No.
Women have different issues from men, and a trans woman probably doesn't understand them all, as she hasn't grown up experiencing them all, so a trans woman is a trans woman, not a real woman.
Maybe have a trans woman shortlist too?
Women have different issues from men, and a trans woman probably doesn't understand them all, as she hasn't grown up experiencing them all, so a trans woman is a trans woman, not a real woman.
Maybe have a trans woman shortlist too?
anyone who identifies as a woman is a 100% genuine bona fide real deal WOMAN
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