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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Can you or can you not easily get a graduate job with an economics degree? I might be wrong but from my experience, you should not have a problem. Wholly irrelevant that you can do the same jobs by taking a masters. Because let me ask you this, can you or can you not easily get a graduate job as a law degree student? And are many of that in your actual field?
    Yes, but so can pretty much any other graduate of any other degree if they're themselves very employable. Well, not really, because there's no huge advantage over non-econ bachelors grads if it's simply a one year programme to get onto the same scheme - so it's not exactly a point against what I said.

    Again, the difficulty one has in getting a job is not down to their degree by itself. Maybe they'll get interviews with just a degree, who knows. Maybe they won't. But my point is, no degree (with the obvious exceptions) is a straight path to a job, and some people especially think that some degrees (again with obvious exceptions) alone are this straight path to success - of which Law/Econ/Maths most commonly fall into. Hence why specifically they, are overrated, because the career prospect to effort required expectations set out are far above reality.

    It doesn't meant they are bad degrees to do, because if the right person with right attitude towards both their uni studies and extracurricular involvements and the right mindset towards a career, does them, they will obviously do well for themselves.

    You happy? Yes, the right person with a law degree or econ degree will do very well and so will the right person with an English degree, a Psychology degree etc etc

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Yes, but so can pretty much any other graduate of any other degree if they're themselves very employable. Well, not really, because there's no huge advantage over non-econ bachelors grads if it's simply a one year programme to get onto the same scheme - so it's not exactly a point against what I said.
    Because so many students in the UK simply do that?

    Again, the difficulty one has in getting a job is not down to their degree by itself. Maybe they'll get interviews with just a degree, who knows. Maybe they won't. But my point is, no degree (with the obvious exceptions) is a straight path to a job, and some people especially think that some degrees (again with obvious exceptions) alone are this straight path to success - of which Law/Econ/Maths most commonly fall into. Hence why specifically they, are overrated, because the career prospect to effort required expectations set out are far above reality.
    I understand your point. But consider the same person taking English or Economics. Is economics still overrated in that sense?

    It doesn't meant they are bad degrees to do, because if the right person with right attitude towards both their uni studies and extracurricular involvements and the right mindset towards a career, does them, they will obviously do well for themselves.

    You happy? Yes, the right person with a law degree or econ degree will do very well and so will the right person with an English degree, a Psychology degree etc etc

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    I have seen plenty of econ grads being the wrong people with the wrong attitude and still get a job. Can you say that for other degrees? I am sure there are those for which you can't.

    It's not that you are wrong, but it's a relative world. But economics has a comparative advantage to many other degrees for the same person. Not against all others, but many and as such I don't think it is overrated in that sense.

    If you want to maintain it is solely down to the person fine, but then this whole thread is pointless, because any degree people think is good is then by definition overrated and any degree considered bad is underrated.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    ...if I "couldn't get to grips with it", why did I get a 2:1? I admit, I got a 2nd in contract, but for criminal, con and ad and legal foundations + advocacy, I got a 2:1.
    confirm my suspicions - you're a law student. an offended law student. probably from not even a good uni. surprise me, though. I welcome it, because it's awfully interesting that somebody as smug as yourself can't understand that your subject isn't meant to be interesting - it's meant to be *incredibly* technical but at the same time *incredibly* analogue. hence why I said that, as a degree, it is "grey" yet "bland".
    Congratulations, you got a 2.1 in the three easiest modules on a law degree. What's also funny is you changed course after you essentially blew your chance to get a city training contract.

    I'm not offended, all education is a means to an ends for me. I now have the job I wanted so my degree is essentially irrelevant going forward. As for the university (more accurately, universities) I attended, I suppose it depends on what your definition of a good university is.

    I didn't say law is interesting but it's quite funny to say law is dull so I switched to politics. A subject being boring doesn't mean the degree is overrated


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    (Original post by GradeA*UnderA)
    Computing, engineering, maths and medicine all have high starting salaries
    Graduate salary average -

    Computer Science - £23,628
    Engineering - £27,452
    Mathematics - £24,119
    Medicine - £28,674

    All of these are skewed as those averages are taken from the whole of the UK, including London, where salaries are considerably higher because of higher living costs.

    Outside of London, most are expected to be £3000-5000 less. Also, if you take up a job in the education sector in any of those fields, immediately remove £10k from that.

    If you only care about starting salary, become a dentist - £38k+ starting, and best working hours of any NHS profession.

    Back on topic - English Lit with Journalism, anyone taking it probably won't ever work as a Journalist, because if they need to take a course on how to do it, they won't be capable of doing it for real, or they'll work for some degenerate e-paper like The Tab.
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    (Original post by iainvg)
    Graduate salary average -

    Computer Science - £23,628
    Engineering - £27,452
    Mathematics - £24,119
    Medicine - £28,674
    Medicine - every grad goes into it
    CompSci - mix of grads going into different areas doing different jobs
    Maths - mix of grads going into different areas and doing different jobs
    Engineering - primarily skewed towards grads actually going into engineering

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Medicine - every grad goes into it
    CompSci - mix of grads going into different areas doing different jobs
    Maths - mix of grads going into different areas and doing different jobs
    Engineering - primarily skewed towards grads actually going into engineering

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    Generalisations being typically vague as usual though, it's also so incredibly dependent on where in the UK they get employed. For example, if I'd stayed in Plymouth after my degree, i'd have started out closer to £15k. The post that I had quoted was weighted in such a way that it was more wrong than the averages i posted. Starting salaries are wild and varied, but those are generally just outliers to the norm.
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    (Original post by iainvg)
    Generalisations being typically vague as usual though, it's also so incredibly dependent on where in the UK they get employed. For example, if I'd stayed in Plymouth after my degree, i'd have started out closer to £15k. The post that I had quoted was weighted in such a way that it was more wrong than the averages i posted. Starting salaries are wild and varied, but those are generally just outliers to the norm.

    EDIT: pressed the submit button too early.

    You're right that starting salaries vary by location, but they also vary by job and company/organization. And my point in quoting your data was to show that some of those numbers are more accurate than others, because of the %age make up of where grads of these subjects end up.

    Your point still stands, not trying to dismiss it at all.


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    (Original post by iainvg)
    Graduate salary average -

    Computer Science - £23,628
    Engineering - £27,452
    Mathematics - £24,119
    Medicine - £28,674
    It's worth noting that engineering salaries are also skewed. Being an "engineer" isn't a legally protected term like it is in the US. Only protected titles i can remember in the UK are doctor and lawyer. Maybe policeman too but that may be in the US.

    So any company can advertise their job as am engineering one despite having slightly different and therefore lower paying roles. If you take your BEng or MEng degree and find an actual engineering firm, you'll earn more than the average.

    Oh and it's worth reminding everyone that overrated and bad don't mean the same thing.
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    Of course you can't compare graduate salaries.

    Take maths graduates as an example. They normally end up on relatively high average starting salaries but always fall short of engineers and medics - why? Looking at statistics in 2015, a large percentage of them (40.4%) actually went into finance and business, professions which tend to pay higher starting salaries. However, at the same time, mathematics graduates were almost twice as likely to go on to further study (23.3%) than the graduate cohort as a whole (12.1%). A high percentage also went into education.

    It's not that good opportunities aren't open to them, rather that the mindset of a mathematician is completely different to the mindset of an engineering graduate or a finance graduate, who both have a much better idea of what career they want to go into even before they've began studying for their degree. I think maths is a very strong degree if you know what you want to do.
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    (Original post by Paraphilos)
    Of course you can't compare graduate salaries.

    Take maths graduates as an example. They normally end up on relatively high average starting salaries but always fall short of engineers and medics - why? Looking at statistics in 2015, a large percentage of them (40.4%) actually went into finance and business, professions which tend to pay higher starting salaries. However, at the same time, mathematics graduates were almost twice as likely to go on to further study (23.3%) than the graduate cohort as a whole (12.1%). A high percentage also went into education.

    It's not that good opportunities aren't open to them, rather that the mindset of a mathematician is completely different to the mindset of an engineering graduate or a finance graduate, who both have a much better idea of what career they want to go into even before they've began studying for their degree. I think maths is a very strong degree if you know what you want to do.
    I agree.

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    (Original post by Vikingninja)
    History.
    :'(

    History is underrated man
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    (Original post by SuperHuman98)
    :'(

    History is underrated man
    Not really, ridiculously popular.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Congratulations, you got a 2.1 in the three easiest modules on a law degree. What's also funny is you changed course after you essentially blew your chance to get a city training contract.
    :lol: I really wish you could actually come up with something a little less predictable - you disappoint me - "oh, you didn't do badly? oh well I guess I need to move the goal posts somehow" *rolls eyes* come on, mate.

    I am a law student, and* I'm not offended, all education is a means to an ends for me.
    hah, oh wow, I bet you're such an interesting person in that case...

    I now have the job I wanted so my degree is essentially irrelevant going forward. As for the university (more accurately, universities) I attended, I suppose it depends on what your definition of a good university is.
    which did you go to?
    this is probably where you seize the opportunity to give me a made up story of where you went, concerning those universit"ies".

    I didn't say law is interesting but it's quite funny to say law is dull so I switched to politics. A subject being boring doesn't mean the degree is overrated
    it kind of does though in the sense that I said it...
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    Overrated degree?

    Do the one you enjoy. You're more likely to achieve higher marks, and a First is going to increase your chances of an interview for certain positions more than the subject itself.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Don't take this the wrong way but bioscience degrees are not the most academically demanding either with a fair bit of overlap with medicine so it is no wonder intercalaters can get decent results.
    Hmm. I assure you the level of overlap between the two years of say a biochemistry or a biomedical engineering degree and two years of medicine is minimal. This is akin to saying that that there is overlap between physics at A-level and physics at university, therefore a physics A-level student should get a first in BSc or even an MSc in physics if they joined into the third year...this is very much counterintuitive. Also bear in mind that medicine graduates have little research/lab skills yet the third year is mostly research-based for most courses. Regarding higher research degrees, I can tell you from some experience that compared to three years of medicine, most clinicians embarking on them find them a bit of a joke really...no nights, fewer weekends and most days you even go home on time.

    I actually agree that the biosciences aren't very academically demanding but then again I always thought physics and maths were a bit of doss, though highly respectable in their own right. Using a multifaceted and specialised set of skills and knowledge and applying them in high risk situations to solve often unique scenarios towards a greater purpose, i.e. the service of humanity, I always found more challenging.

    The point is that different things suit different people. What I find challenging and what you might find academically demanding are different things. However, hard graft is a constant (as Edison said Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety nine percent perspiration) that is respected across fields and even more than wits perhaps that is the one attribute that medicine prizes above all.

    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    The funny thing is you can get into medical school without demonstrating any of the qualities you mention, yet doctors and medical students are supposed to be a cut above on those qualities? Doesn't really follow to me.
    I could argue that they are. The rigour of medical application process. 6 months of voluntary work. Entrance exams. Weeks of shadowing. Rigorous interviews, many using situational judgement and roleplay scenarios. As someone who has been part of the delivery process of these, I would say that medical applicants have never been so microscopically examined on so many facets, such as organisation, comms, teamwork, critical thinking, situational judgement, empathy etc. This is not at oxbridge, this is the standard at pretty much any med school these days. I'd wager no course enforces such a huge amount of scrutiny as standard. Then there is the process of medical schooling itself.

    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Especially after seeing some of the mistakes doctors have made first hand it becomes quite clear in fact that the medical profession is nothing special. And as for the personal responsibility part, the GMC bends over backwards not to find doctors unfit to practice through incompetence, mental health and addiction issues to a level that beggars belief in certain cases.
    This is slanderous. The GMC is probably the most aggressive regulator on the planet. You can look up case files on MTPS website and see how ridiculously stringent it can be. The GMC uses an approach to convicting doctors that is based "balance of probabilities" rather than the legal view of "beyond reasonable doubt." Even if you have mental problems, the GMC will come after you and put regulations on your file. Effectively ending your career. This is excluding things like revalidation, yearly ARCP reviews, TABS exercises which involve 360 degree feedback from allied health professionals even clerks twice a year, ridiculous amounts of portfolio reflections to learn from mistakes, never event meetings, bleep meetings, clinical supervisor reviews etc.
    "Mistakes" is a strong word. It is often very easy to say this with hindsight. The only assured outcome in medicine is death...I'm surprised more people don't die given the shoestring budgets and pressures currently afflicting healthcare. This blame culture is more a reflection of society's inability to accept the risks inherent in medical practice.

    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    In certain regions (generally with a low cost of living) there are no jobs that pay better than being a consultant so enlighten me as to how, in quite a few circumstances, similar or greater financial reward could be obtained with less effort? The only way you could exceed these earnings would be starting your own business, which of course anyone is welcome to try.
    Under the new consultant contract, the starting salary of a consultant with a decade of postgrad training will be £50k and they will work 1 weekend in 3. For a course with ridiculously stringent and expensive training which involves often yearly exams, with gruelling conditions at work, do you think this is fair reward? In terms of the highest band, I believe 90k is being discussed at the moment, dependent on the amount out of hours commitments and arbitrary managerial performance measures. The current max of around 100k is achieved usually after 20 years as a consultant i.e. near retirement.
    You are comparing apples and oranges. The demographic in these regions is unlikely to have put in that much effort into building their career from GCSEs onwards. If you were to compare them to professionals with similar grades and similar hours and intensity of work and similar out of work commitments. You could make the same demographic statement about economists or bankers working in inner London etc. The only difference in medicine is that (a) they are not paid as well as those people; and (b) the practice of medicine can often not be restricted to a geographically limited area (people get sick everywhere).
    I think a large part of this is the NHS. People expect doctors to slave away for them because of a sense of entitlement to healthcare. They somehow have these utopian visions of how much money doctors have and that's all they care about and therefore this is leading to diminishing respect. As someone who has experienced healthcare in other countries from both sides, I think that a privitised system will probably lead to more respect for doctors as people find themselves having to pay for the privilege of seeing a doctor and getting extra often unneeded investigations such as happens in the US and Western Europe. I think this part of why doctors are so respected in the US and other parts of the world, because they give people what they want, and use a shotgun approach to health.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    :lol: I really wish you could actually come up with something a little less predictable - you disappoint me - "oh, you didn't do badly? oh well I guess I need to move the goal posts somehow" *rolls eyes* come on, mate.
    You got a 2.1 in criminal law, that's the only proper module that you managed that in.

    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    hah, oh wow, I bet you're such an interesting person in that case...
    Because of course the degree someone studies says everything you need to know about how interesting a person they are. Again, whether I'm interesting or not what depend on what you find interesting.

    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    which did you go to?
    this is probably where you seize the opportunity to give me a made up story of where you went, concerning those universit"ies".
    Unlike some people I feel no desire to create an online alter ego of the person I wish I'd become. I studied at KCL and did a year abroad at Columbia.

    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    it kind of does though in the sense that I said it...
    Interesting barometer for what's overrated.


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    (Original post by BasicMistake)
    Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic
    :facepalm: ASNaC is an awesome degree.
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    (Original post by ChocolateCosmos)
    This hurts
    Hahaha! I feel so sorry for aspiring doctors, lawyers and PPE-ers who are reading this thread.

    (Original post by Snufkin)
    :facepalm: ASNaC is an awesome degree.
    Bloody ASNaC. Full of people who love their subject instead of shallow people looking for easy routes into banking.

    *spits*
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    (Original post by Hydromancer)
    Hmm. I assure you the level of overlap between the two years of say a biochemistry or a biomedical engineering degree and two years of medicine is minimal. This is akin to saying that that there is overlap between physics at A-level and physics at university, therefore a physics A-level student should get a first in BSc or even an MSc in physics if they joined into the third year...this is very much counterintuitive. Also bear in mind that medicine graduates have little research/lab skills yet the third year is mostly research-based for most courses. Regarding higher research degrees, I can tell you from some experience that compared to three years of medicine, most clinicians embarking on them find them a bit of a joke really...no nights, fewer weekends and most days you even go home on time.

    I actually agree that the biosciences aren't very academically demanding but then again I always thought physics and maths were a bit of doss, though highly respectable in their own right. Using a multifaceted and specialised set of skills and knowledge and applying them in high risk situations to solve often unique scenarios towards a greater purpose, i.e. the service of humanity, I always found more challenging.

    The point is that different things suit different people. What I find challenging and what you might find academically demanding are different things. However, hard graft is a constant (as Edison said Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety nine percent perspiration) that is respected across fields and even more than wits perhaps that is the one attribute that medicine prizes above all.



    I could argue that they are. The rigour of medical application process. 6 months of voluntary work. Entrance exams. Weeks of shadowing. Rigorous interviews, many using situational judgement and roleplay scenarios. As someone who has been part of the delivery process of these, I would say that medical applicants have never been so microscopically examined on so many facets, such as organisation, comms, teamwork, critical thinking, situational judgement, empathy etc. This is not at oxbridge, this is the standard at pretty much any med school these days. I'd wager no course enforces such a huge amount of scrutiny as standard. Then there is the process of medical schooling itself.



    This is slanderous. The GMC is probably the most aggressive regulator on the planet. You can look up case files on MTPS website and see how ridiculously stringent it can be. The GMC uses an approach to convicting doctors that is based "balance of probabilities" rather than the legal view of "beyond reasonable doubt." Even if you have mental problems, the GMC will come after you and put regulations on your file. Effectively ending your career. This is excluding things like revalidation, yearly ARCP reviews, TABS exercises which involve 360 degree feedback from allied health professionals even clerks twice a year, ridiculous amounts of portfolio reflections to learn from mistakes, never event meetings, bleep meetings, clinical supervisor reviews etc.
    "Mistakes" is a strong word. It is often very easy to say this with hindsight. The only assured outcome in medicine is death...I'm surprised more people don't die given the shoestring budgets and pressures currently afflicting healthcare. This blame culture is more a reflection of society's inability to accept the risks inherent in medical practice.


    Under the new consultant contract, the starting salary of a consultant with a decade of postgrad training will be £50k and they will work 1 weekend in 3. For a course with ridiculously stringent and expensive training which involves often yearly exams, with gruelling conditions at work, do you think this is fair reward? In terms of the highest band, I believe 90k is being discussed at the moment, dependent on the amount out of hours commitments and arbitrary managerial performance measures. The current max of around 100k is achieved usually after 20 years as a consultant i.e. near retirement.
    You are comparing apples and oranges. The demographic in these regions is unlikely to have put in that much effort into building their career from GCSEs onwards. If you were to compare them to professionals with similar grades and similar hours and intensity of work and similar out of work commitments. You could make the same demographic statement about economists or bankers working in inner London etc. The only difference in medicine is that (a) they are not paid as well as those people; and (b) the practice of medicine can often not be restricted to a geographically limited area (people get sick everywhere).
    I think a large part of this is the NHS. People expect doctors to slave away for them because of a sense of entitlement to healthcare. They somehow have these utopian visions of how much money doctors have and that's all they care about and therefore this is leading to diminishing respect. As someone who has experienced healthcare in other countries from both sides, I think that a privitised system will probably lead to more respect for doctors as people find themselves having to pay for the privilege of seeing a doctor and getting extra often unneeded investigations such as happens in the US and Western Europe. I think this part of why doctors are so respected in the US and other parts of the world, because they give people what they want, and use a shotgun approach to health.
    So you agree that biosciences are not academically demanding and then continue to bleat on about how brilliant academically med students are on average?

    The only risk in medicine is to the patient not you the doctor which is not the traditional definition of high risk situations 😂

    If the GMC was as strict as the aviation industry regulators for instance there would be no doctors left practising.

    I actually think that in deprived areas 50k for a beginning consultant which is over 3 times the average salary is "enough". The usual med student/doctor BS of how anyone that earns less didn't work for their grades at school is alive and well I see. A lot of other professional careers including those you mentioned don't have the longevity of medicine hence comparing early career salaries is a bit disingenuous 😉
 
 
 
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