Anonymity for Rape Accused Watch

Smack
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#41
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#41
(Original post by missygeorgia)
Obviously it's terrible that a few men are wrongly accused of rape. But right now, we need to be sending out the signal that rape victims should be taken more seriously, not less.
Granting anonymity for the defendant does not mean that the victim is taken less seriously.
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LoRdShRaPnEl
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#42
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#42
(Original post by missygeorgia)
And there are way, way more cases of women being accused of lying about rape and genuine rapists being let off.

Obviously it's terrible that a few men are wrongly accused of rape. But right now, we need to be sending out the signal that rape victims should be taken more seriously, not less.
I am sorry your argument does not hold weight.

Rape is a very serious crime, forensics and such are used to try link the suspect, just as in any serious armed robbery, murder etc..

If it can not be proven beyond doubt then it can't be proven, just like occasional any other crime can not be proven. Rape victims are no worse off than attempted murder victims and violent gbh victims who do not get convictions. What do you want to do? Oh we don't have enough proof but you can go to prison anyway?

Frankly it seems the reason conviction rates are soo low from my view is the women to not come forward when the evidence is fresh. Which is sadly no one's fault but there own. Without the forensics it is a ***** to get a conviction, just like any serious crime.
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paddyman4
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#43
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#43
More attention needs to be paid to the 94% of reported cases that do not end in conviction rather than the few that are false.
How does this person know what proportion of those 94% are false?

Innocent until proven guilty has been replaced with assuming that lack of conviction means a faulty system rather than a lack of guilt.

I think anonymity should be granted in all crimes. Kids are given anonymity (rightly so) and the disparity just says that it's OK to wreck adult lives.

I mean look what happened to Michael Jackson. Found not guilty in a court of law, yet he spent his whole life with people thinking he's a paedo. People today believe in 'no smoke without fire' without hesitation; an accusation is as good as a conviction to so many people. Or Matthew Kelly - accused of child molestation, cleared in the space of a month - and when was the last time anyone saw him on TV? He was whisked off 'Stars in their eyes: kids' instantly.
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missygeorgia
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#44
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#44
(Original post by CombineHarvester)
I think the benefits of anonymity for the accused far outweigh the potential negatives which may not even exist.
I don't.


(Original post by CombineHarvester)
The low conviction rate doesn't necessarily mean all of the 94% are guaranteed to be rapists, there are numerous reasons for the low rate of conviction and whether or not anonymity exists has nothing to do with it.
But women not being taken seriously about their accusations does have something to do with it.


(Original post by CombineHarvester)
You still haven't said how the introduction of anonymity will affect the conviction rate.
No, I haven't. Was I supposed to or something?
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missygeorgia
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Smack)
Granting anonymity for the defendant does not mean that the victim is taken less seriously.
I think the women are already not being taken seriously, which is why this proposal is being made.
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greatmonte
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#46
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#46
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8338554.stm
you can be against rape and still believe that things like this are wrong and so the system needs to be changed
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missygeorgia
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#47
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#47
(Original post by LoRdShRaPnEl)
I am sorry your argument does not hold weight.

Rape is a very serious crime, forensics and such are used to try link the suspect, just as in any serious armed robbery, murder etc..

If it can not be proven beyond doubt then it can't be proven, just like occasional any other crime can not be proven. Rape victims are no worse off than attempted murder victims and violent gbh victims who do not get convictions. What do you want to do? Oh we don't have enough proof but you can go to prison anyway?

Frankly it seems the reason conviction rates are soo low from my view is the women to not come forward when the evidence is fresh. Which is sadly no one's fault but there own. Without the forensics it is a ***** to get a conviction, just like any serious crime.
You can have your opinion, but the fact is our conviction rate is almost the lowest in Europe, and investigations have shown that we fail dismally in the way we- and the justice system- treat rape victims.
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Smack
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#48
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#48
(Original post by missygeorgia)
I think the women are already not being taken seriously, which is why this proposal is being made.
I don't understand your logic there. You do realise that anonymity for the defendant is not mutually exclusive to taking victims more seriously, right?
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greatmonte
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#49
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#49
(Original post by missygeorgia)
I think the women are already not being taken seriously, which is why this proposal is being made.
please dont try and make this about, opression of one sex when this is a case of trying to make the most just legal system and not allowing some peoples lives to be ruined by a allegation which still has not been proven, when no one else is.
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LoRdShRaPnEl
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#50
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#50
(Original post by missygeorgia)
You can have your opinion, but the fact is our conviction rate is almost the lowest in Europe, and investigations have shown that we fail dismally in the way we- and the justice system- treat rape victims.
Can you explain what you mean by how the justice system treat victims? With details?
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The Referee
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#51
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#51
I fully support this.
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CombineHarvester
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#52
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#52
(Original post by missygeorgia)
I don't.




But women not being taken seriously about their accusations does have something to do with it.




No, I haven't. Was I supposed to or something?
How do you know women aren't being taken seriously, a low rate of conviction does not mean rape cases are disregarded by police and the judicial system. Do you have any evidence for this apart from the low conviction rate which doesn't prove anything about how police treat rape claims.

Oh, and you keep on referring to this low conviction rate which seems to be the basis of your argument about how rapes aren't treated seriously (insult to police and judicial system imo) so yes, you do need to justify how this legislation will have a negative effect on conviction rates.
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missygeorgia
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#53
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#53
(Original post by Smack)
I don't understand your logic there. You do realise that anonymity for the defendant is not mutually exclusive to taking victims more seriously, right?
Absolutely, and in an ideal world this wouldn't be a problem. But the fact is, right now, women aren't being taken seriously about their accusations, they're being accused of lying, and I believe these proposals are very much a part of this.
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~Kat~
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#54
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#54
I agree on anonymity throughout the court proceedings, but after they've been sent down? No.
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paddyman4
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
It's absolutely right, and I'm glad to see this finally happen.

Frankly, I wish more crimes had anonymity for the accused. Imagine if you were accused of paedophilia and cleared - you would still be labelled a paedophile wherever you went and whatever you did, even if there was no evidence supporting the accusation. Talk about your life being in tatters . . .

But frankly, I think there also needs to be a serious and frank discussion in the public arena about the severity of falsely accusing someone of a crime. It can ruin a life.
What's even worse than the social stigma is that you don't even need to be convicted of anything to be put on the sex offender's register. You can have a spotless criminal record but if you get accused of a sexual offence and the police think you're a bit dodgy - bye bye any career that requires a background check. That's what's resulted from the constant pressure to convict more people who are accused - rather than look at the judicial system, the government decided to just ruin legally innocent people in case they were actually guilty. Yay for presumption of innocence.
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missygeorgia
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#56
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#56
(Original post by LoRdShRaPnEl)
Can you explain what you mean by how the justice system treat victims? With details?
Yes.

'Her Majesty's Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate, the independent inspectorates for the police and CPS, found that many officers dealing with rape victims had "very little training in responding to rape cases" and a "lack of awareness" of the need to follow the relevant guidance.

Victims were found to experience delays, "unpleasant environments", inappropriate behaviour by professionals, insensitive questioning during interviews and "judgmental or disbelieving attitudes" when coming forward with complaints of rape.

As a result, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage. The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and "the view that the victim lacks credibility".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...onvictions-low
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missygeorgia
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#57
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#57
(Original post by CombineHarvester)
How do you know women aren't being taken seriously, a low rate of conviction does not mean rape cases are disregarded by police and the judicial system. Do you have any evidence for this apart from the low conviction rate which doesn't prove anything about how police treat rape claims.
Yes. See the investigation I referred to in my reply to LordShrapnel.


(Original post by CombineHarvester)
Oh, and you keep on referring to this low conviction rate which seems to be the basis of your argument about how rapes aren't treated seriously (insult to police and judicial system imo) so yes, you do need to justify how this legislation will have a negative effect on conviction rates.
Show me the post where I claimed this legislation would have a negative effect on conviction rates.
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paddyman4
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#58
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#58
(Original post by missygeorgia)
Show me the post where I claimed this legislation would have a negative effect on conviction rates.


Well then you're being ridiculous. You want to keep ruining innocent men's lives not because you think it results in more convictions of guilty ones, but because you think it's insulting to rape victims to grant anonymity to the accused?

The man's career, safety and well-being take precedence over the victim's feelings unless he is found guilty.
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Thomasmc135
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#59
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#59
Two words - Jonny Evans, accused of rape by some nobody, big reports on the news and in the papers. The case then gets dropped, you get a little 1 line story about how it was dropped. The jokes about him are stupid, but all based around this incident. I agree with the anonymity. However, if convicted name and shame.
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missygeorgia
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#60
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#60
(Original post by paddyman4)
Well then you're being ridiculous. You want to keep ruining innocent men's lives not because you think it results in more convictions of guilty ones, but because you think it's insulting to rape victims to grant anonymity to the accused?

The man's career, safety and well-being take precedence over the victim's feelings unless he is found guilty.
It's not the victim's 'feelings', it's the persistent attitude in our society that rape accusations are not to be trusted. The changing of this attitude is what I hold to be most important regarding rape cases, and this legislation only reinforces the view that rape victims can't be taken seriously. Is it really that difficult to understand?
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