Sodemy/Homosexuality - natural or not

Kreuzuerk

Your 'moral beliefs' seek to limit the liberty of others and to curtail their right to self-determination however, mine do not. :smile:

No my moral beliefs have no tolerance for depravity and the proliferation of degenerate behaviour under the guise of "liberty and self determination".

But as I said, we have very different morals. :indiff:

Reply 402

Diaz89

No my moral beliefs have no tolerance for depravity and the proliferation of degenerate behaviour under the guise of "liberty and self determination".

But as I said, we have very different morals. :indiff:

There is no such thing as 'under the guise of liberty and self-determination' as either something occurs under circumstances of free liberty and self-determination or it does not. Again, you seek to control the self-determination of others to suit your own ends. Do you deny that you seek to undermine their liberty and self-determination or not?

Reply 403

werd123

11

Diaz89

Right you're essentially saying that homosexuals have no self control hence they behave as they do.

No I said they do not have a choice in whether they're homosexual or not. If animals with no concious thought as we have can have homosexuality, it proves that homosexuality is not a concious choice. When did I ever imply they have no self control?

Excellent, then we cannot pick and choose what traits animals exhibit and compare them to humans because they are in essence morally wrong?

No again. Because rape and cannibalism are against the law and can infringe the rights of others, they're not acceptable in a modern day society, however homosexuality is because it doesn't infringe the rights of others, and isn't against the law. Again like I said, you cannot apply blanket reasoning to all the traits of animals, because like I said they don't have to adhere to social rules so they will do acts which with humans in a modern day society, would have negative consequences (i.e rape), whereas some (i.e homosexuality) would not.

I'm sorry I completely disagree with you there

But why? They're both traits exhibited by animals widely across the animal kingdom, and there is no reason to believe that Cannibalism is natural whereas homosexuality isn't.

What if they're homosexuals incestual sex as in between two brothers, or a father and a son, or even with protection between a male and female?

Then it makes no difference ... the gender isn't important ...
Like I said, if they use protection, it is in a private residence and is consensual, it can be seen as acceptable. Whether it's a man and a man or a woman and a woman makes no difference whatsoever.

You think it's conducive or looks right upon a society that tolerates and will inevitably celebrate incest?

Did I say we should celebrate incest? No. Did I say that you could say the state has no business concerning what we do in the bedroom providing it doesn't break the law? Yes. The point is that incest won't be embraced in the way homosexuality has as incest can have negative consequences, so at the very most it will be tolerated behind closed doors but not encouraged because of the results that can follow. Homosexuality however, quite clearly has no detrimental effects to society.

Reply 404

Kreuzuerk

There is no such thing as 'under the guise of liberty and self-determination' as either something occurs under circumstances of free liberty and self-determination or it does not. Again, you seek to control the self-determination of others to suit your own ends. Do you deny that you seek to undermine their liberty and self-determination or not?

You pacify abhorrent behaviour with terms like liberty and self determination which seemingly have positive connotations. You employ deceptive terms like this to justify what is essentially barbaric behaviour which you are so often happy to point at different religions for doing when you, yourself are oblivious to your own hypocrisy.

Reply 405

Diaz89

You pacify abhorrent behaviour with terms like liberty and self determination which seemingly have positive connotations. You employ deceptive terms like this to justify what is essentially barbaric behaviour which you are so often happy to point at different religions for doing when you, yourself are oblivious to your own hypocrisy.

You didn't answer my question.

Do you seek to curtail the liberty and self-determination of consenting homosexuals or not? I seek to do this to no-one. Your argument is essentially: because I don't approve, it is therefore morally repugnant and therefore those wishing to do it should not be able to.

I think this concludes the matter.

Reply 406

Chumbaniya

17

If anyone could provide a relevant definition of 'natural', this might be a legitimate question. I wish the word 'natural' could just be erased from our language because in so many circumstances it is used despite being completely meaningless in that context, especially as a tool to oppress people who are different. Furthermore, no-one who uses 'natural' in an argument seems to do so consistently. And that's not even the worst part - what is it about the word 'natural' which has connotations of moral correctness? It's 'natural' that people die of all manner of horrific diseases - does this make medicine morally wrong?

And if anyone equates 'natural' and 'the way God intended' then I will slap them.

Reply 407

birdsong1

howdypartner21

Right,

I got in a debate with a gay friend of mine. He ASKED me what I thought of homosexuality (I have known him for years and never said anything about it before, because he never asked), but because he asked, I replied respectfully, but honestly and he hasnt spoken to me in months despite my numerous texts.

i basically said the following things, while always listening to when he would reply:

I think homosexuality is wrong. I never understood it, one of my friends summarised his opinion on sodemy:

"we have 'in' holes (mouth) and 'out' holes (anus) and we shouldnt get them mixed up. Why put something into a place where excrement comes out of" and also "god made adam and Eve, not adam and Steve", which is true. Which is why most gays are not religious, because most religions are against homosexuality.

I completely agree with my friends statements. Human waste comes out of the anus, and sodemites are sticking their penis into their. (BTW I think anal penetration of girls is just as disgusting and un natural). I have nothing against gay people, hence why I am trying to re-contact my friend. But if asked, be prepared for the truth. There is nothing natural about it and homosexuality imo is wrong. Also, if a gay couple amrried and adopted, that child is going to probably sway to feeling gay, and he defo wont have a normal childhood.

I was given the argument that we have receptors in our anus and therefore its only logical that we enjoy stuff getting put in our anus, which acually sickens me. Its not even an argument. I am sure we do have reseptors there, doesnt mean people should insert something up their!

I think that whenever someone says they dont think sodemy is natural or right, they are labeled homophobic, i have nothing against sodomites, they can do what they want i am more than happy with that, but I do not think its right and I do not think its natural and i think there is nothing wrong in saying that at all.

I was thinking about it more and a lot of my gay friends are either loners and/or over think things way to much and so I think that there reason for having no friends is because they are different (gay) or they thoughtt hemselves to believe that, because when he was on the bus saw another guy on the bus or somethign and therefore that person is gay (they analyse things way to much).

Another point I mentioned to him is that "gay" means happy and it was stolen to be used for Sodemy, to make it seem more normal, but there is nothing naturl about sodemy. It is even definined as "unnatural" sex

This is to be a constructive thread, no disrespect to anyone.

There is nothing wrong with me saying that i think sodemy (homosexuality) is wrong and unnatural, its freedom of speech.

Thoughts....

Keep it clean so moderators wont delete this freedom of speech and constructive debate

Your justification of why homosexuality is wrong is so ******* boring. It's like the thing you say when you don't really know how to phrase it, you only know in your hearts that it must be wrong.

There is one thing I will say, however. Compare your friend's (somewhat misguided) argument for to your own against. What's the difference, really?

Reply 408

LittleMissCurious

4

"...penis into their".

"...doesnt mean people should insert something up their!"

*there.

Reply 409

werd123

No I said they do not have a choice in whether they're homosexual or not. If animals with no concious thought as we have can have homosexuality, it proves that homosexuality is not a concious choice. When did I ever imply they have no self control

Good then we can end this animal/human nonsense. Secondly incestous couples do not have a choice, why should they avert themselves from succumbing to their desires as they forced to do currently?

No again. Because rape and cannibalism are against the law and can infringe the rights of others, they're not acceptable in a modern day society, however homosexuality is because it doesn't infringe the rights of others, and isn't against the law. Again like I said, you cannot apply blanket reasoning to all the traits of animals, because like I said they don't have to adhere to social rules so they will do acts which with humans in a modern day society, would have negative consequences (i.e rape), whereas some (i.e homosexuality) would not.

You didn't say anything about consent you said

"because by our social rules and expectations, regardless of whether these are natural or not (which technically they are), they're morally wrong for a modern society"

Who are you to dictate upon others?

Secondly,because it's consensual, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand, besides even if it is, this article confirms as to why it shouldn't be tolerated.

And the bolded part reinforces my argument, yet again, thanks.

But why? They're both traits exhibited by animals widely across the animal kingdom, and there is no reason to believe that Cannibalism is natural whereas homosexuality isn't.

Rape and cannibalism are depraved acts, the fact that you would compare with them with homosexuality only defeats your argument and reinforces mine.

Thanks actually.

Then it makes no difference ... the gender isn't important ...
Like I said, if they use protection, it is in a private residence and is consensual, it can be seen as acceptable. Whether it's a man and a man or a woman and a woman makes no difference whatsoever.

You said it can have bad consequences...i.e deformed children at birth.
And the fact you think it's acceptable if frankly disgusting and pathetic. Infact it makes me reject your beliefs even more.

Did I say we should celebrate incest? No. Did I say that you could say the state has no business concerning what we do in the bedroom providing it doesn't break the law? Yes.

I thought incest was perfectly acceptable? why can't you celebrate it?

The point is that incest won't be embraced in the way homosexuality has as incest can have negative consequences, so at the very most it will be tolerated behind closed doors but not encouraged because of the results that can follow. Homosexuality however, quite clearly has no detrimental effects to society.

like what?

Reply 410

katebushfan

13

Flying Cookie

Thanks there.

I realise it is naive to expect people to fix their deeply rooted attitudes - I observe this on myself; I think and I know that e.g. the impressions I get about people are not necessarily correct, but I always, always use first impressions to judge others. I do however try hard to rid myself of baseless, destructive attitudes and prejudices. It's not even about bad things e.g. "I bet that guy is a selfish prick", but also the good ones "They look like cool people", because they all tend to lead me to do silly things based on false assumptions. I mean, I'm gay, but if I try to imagine myself being disgusted by gays, I easily can! Why? Because the hints necessary for it are so readily available in popular culture e.g. "It's gross, unnatural, immoral, etc.", that it's no longer a matter of reason and logic whether I end up believing those things, so it works a bit like "If you repeat it enough times, they'll beliee it even though it's false".

Well your comments about being rational were spot on. I'm also gay, however I don't feel the same, if I try to view it as wrong I simply can't. This might be because I'm in an environment where all my friends are lesbian/ gay and people are pretty liberal.

I agree with what you're saying. If you give people an easy answer, or an opinion the masses can group together and form as one, they'll take it. I say this with no real evidence but I really do think people just love to hate something/ spread hate whilst thinking it makes them morally superior (same goes for the catholic church condeming homosexuality with no reason or logic).

To be fair, sometimes first impressions are always right :wink:

.

Reply 411

Kreuzuerk

You didn't answer my question.

Do you seek to curtail the liberty and self-determination of consenting homosexuals or not? I seek to do this to no-one.

I think this concludes the matter.

I seek the prosperity of and civility of my community if that means ending abhorrent degenerate behaviour then so be it. You are one that seeks and enjoys such interactions to fester in a modern civilized society which concludes that you're an uncivilized barbarian.

And I'm glad I had this interaction with [people like you on this thread, for the first ever I have seen what atheists actually believe in and the things they do believe in, let's just say is very troubling.

Reply 412

speedbird

16

Diaz89

Right you're essentially saying that homosexuals have no self control hence they behave as they do.

He said no such thing. Maybe you need this as well. What he said is that homosexuality is not a choice, which is a proven fact.

Reply 413

Diaz89

I seek the prosperity of and civility of my community if that means ending abhorrent degenerate behaviour then so be it. You are one that seeks and enjoys such interactions to fester in a modern civilized society which concludes that you're an uncivilized barbarian.

And I'm glad I had this interaction with [people like you on this thread, for the first ever I have seen what atheists actually believe in and the things they do believe in, let's just say is very troubling.

Again, you seek to impose your own opinion on the rest of the world. I seek to do no such thing but rather allow for every other person to conduct their life in a manner which suits them and affects nobody else. Why do you believe that your opinion takes preference over theirs? You simply can't say 'in my opinion it is depraved, and therefore it is depraved also for the rest of the world too'. And that is startlingly obvious.

Reply 414

Kreuzuerk

Again, you seek to impose your own opinion on the rest of the world. I seek to do no such thing but rather allow for every other person to conduct their life in a manner which suits them and affects nobody else. Why do you believe that your opinion takes preference over theirs?

You seek the destruction of any sort of morality and in essence enact anarchy. You go to incredible lengths to justify one of form of abhorrent behavior by accepting an another. That is not the trait of a civilized society, that is just.....frankly despicable.

Regarding myself, I seek not to impose my opinion,because essentially it isn't mine, it that of normal human interaction and civility. You on the other hand seek to pollute that with degeneracy under the guise of terms like liberty and self determination

Reply 415

Diaz89

You seek the destruction of any sort of morality and in essence enact anarchy. You go to incredible lengths to justify one of form of abhorrent behavior by accepting an another. That is not the trait of a civilized society, that is just.....frankly despicable.

Regarding myself, I seek not to impose my opinion,because essentially it isn't mine, it that of normal human interaction and civility. You on the other hand seek to pollute that with degeneracy under the guise of terms like liberty and self determination

So, you simply conclude that your opinion is actually what is 'right'. Don't you understand that you are not in a position to decide that? No one person is.

A lot of what you're writing is baseless, such as the first paragraph where for some reason you attempt to suggest I am in favour of anarchy. Pray tell, where have you got this idea from? Moreover, again - you decide for the rest of the world what is 'abhorrent behaviour' and what is not, though you are not in a position to do so. Do you not agree that individuals should be free to do whatever they want so long as they do not impact upon the lives of others? That is surely a foundation-stone of moral thinking, yet you appear to relish throwing it aside.

And please, don't simply reply with meaningless rhetoric about the utter depravity and barbaric nature of my ambition to allow individuals to decide for themselves what they want to do (so long as it does not infringe on others). Cos it's a little embarrassing. Make a substantiated point or don't.

Reply 416

MissOxford

That shouldn't be the question. Homosexuality is out and in the open. People are gay and proud. Like it or not, natural or not, deal with it. No amount of discussion over the naturality of homosexuality will make a gay couple want to stop having sex or breaking up.

Reply 417

Rossical

11

ohh what a load of old ****
before the bible, Qur'an...ALL of the religious books were written noooobody would have any reason to question homosexuality!

I'm gay...if you think it's 'unnatural' then think it...buts its no more unnatural that your tattoos & piercings...& oral sex!

Reply 418

Little Stranger

howdypartner21

Right,

I got in a debate with a gay friend of mine. He ASKED me what I thought of homosexuality (I have known him for years and never said anything about it before, because he never asked), but because he asked, I replied respectfully, but honestly and he hasnt spoken to me in months despite my numerous texts.

i basically said the following things, while always listening to when he would reply:

I think homosexuality is wrong. I never understood it, one of my friends summarised his opinion on sodemy:

"we have 'in' holes (mouth) and 'out' holes (anus) and we shouldnt get them mixed up. Why put something into a place where excrement comes out of" and also "god made adam and Eve, not adam and Steve", which is true. Which is why most gays are not religious, because most religions are against homosexuality.

I completely agree with my friends statements. Human waste comes out of the anus, and sodemites are sticking their penis into their. (BTW I think anal penetration of girls is just as disgusting and un natural). I have nothing against gay people, hence why I am trying to re-contact my friend. But if asked, be prepared for the truth. There is nothing natural about it and homosexuality imo is wrong. Also, if a gay couple amrried and adopted, that child is going to probably sway to feeling gay, and he defo wont have a normal childhood.

I was given the argument that we have receptors in our anus and therefore its only logical that we enjoy stuff getting put in our anus, which acually sickens me. Its not even an argument. I am sure we do have reseptors there, doesnt mean people should insert something up their!

I think that whenever someone says they dont think sodemy is natural or right, they are labeled homophobic, i have nothing against sodomites, they can do what they want i am more than happy with that, but I do not think its right and I do not think its natural and i think there is nothing wrong in saying that at all.

I was thinking about it more and a lot of my gay friends are either loners and/or over think things way to much and so I think that there reason for having no friends is because they are different (gay) or they thoughtt hemselves to believe that, because when he was on the bus saw another guy on the bus or somethign and therefore that person is gay (they analyse things way to much).

Another point I mentioned to him is that "gay" means happy and it was stolen to be used for Sodemy, to make it seem more normal, but there is nothing naturl about sodemy. It is even definined as "unnatural" sex

This is to be a constructive thread, no disrespect to anyone.

There is nothing wrong with me saying that i think sodemy (homosexuality) is wrong and unnatural, its freedom of speech.

Thoughts....

Keep it clean so moderators wont delete this freedom of speech and constructive debate

You must be against oral sex too, since that is also sodomy?

Reply 419