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    How can we take seriously an organisation which gives credence and a public platform to "people" (if you'll pardon the expression) like Kim Jong Un, or Robert Mugabe?
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    Because whilst you may not agree with their views they are still entitled to have their say.
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    Why do you assume that we are right and they are wrong


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    What makes you think your vote is worth anything?
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    (Original post by Sammy Lanka)
    Why do you assume that we are right and they are wrong


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    No one has to be right for them to be wrong.
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    Not all non-democratic systems are inferior. You're just suggesting that we be incredibly arrogant.
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    (Original post by DivinityA)
    Because whilst you may not agree with their views they are still entitled to have their say.
    It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with their views, it's about whether or not they are legitimate representatives of their people and whether or not they have committed crimes against humanity (there is quite a correlation there though).
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    (Original post by The_Duck)
    Not all non-democratic systems are inferior. You're just suggesting that we be incredibly arrogant.
    Which dictator is a legitimate representative who we should listen to?
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    Because the UN is an international forum for achieving peace and understanding between nations, not just the ones we'd like. If you kick out nondemocratic countries, then you've just made the UN completely pointless.

    There are plenty of other world institutions catering purely to democratic nations which have their own specific purposes.
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    Surely it is better to try to engage with dictatorships so you can use what influence you have to try to ferment change than just get these people to entrench through shutting them out of the International system?
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    And who will decide which countries are or aren't democratic? What will be the criteria?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    And who will decide which countries are or aren't democratic? What will be the criteria?
    There are plenty of ways to rate democracy and freedom in a nation.

    Example

    A democracy could only count if it had a free press, free elections and general laws guaranteeing freedom.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    There are plenty of ways to rate democracy and freedom in a nation.

    Example

    A democracy could only count if it had a free press, free elections and general laws guaranteeing freedom.
    And these are inevitably subject to particular worldviews.

    Plus, the way OP phrases it, somewhere a dividing line would have to be drawn.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Surely it is better to try to engage with dictatorships so you can use what influence you have to try to ferment change than just get these people to entrench through shutting them out of the International system?
    Engaging with dictatorships is pointless, they will not listen, and why should they? If they did, they would cease to be dictatorships. I don't think you understand dictators.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    And these are inevitably subject to particular worldviews.

    Plus, the way OP phrases it, somewhere a dividing line would have to be drawn.
    They would be subject to a sane world-view, agreed upon by the majority of humanity and based on reason and evidence.

    For example, we should allow the United States and Norway to be member states, but we should not allow China or Saudi Arabia to be member states (or at least remove China from the security council until it becomes a free country). This is not because we do not "like" China or Saudi Arabia, it is because the Chinese and Saudi Arabian governments do not like humanity.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Engaging with dictatorships is pointless, they will not listen, and why should they? If they did, they would cease to be dictatorships. I don't think you understand dictators.
    So what do you advocate? Just shut them out like North Korea and just hope for the best?
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    So what do you advocate? Just shut them out like North Korea and just hope for the best?
    Shut North Korea and similar countries out of the UN until they become democratic and free.

    Or what do you advocate? Let criminal oppressors have a say over international relations and just hope for the best?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Shut North Korea and similar countries out of the UN until they become democratic and free.

    Or what do you advocate? Let criminal oppressors have a say over international relations and just hope for the best?
    They are hardly having there say but by closing out certain nations the UN will look like a joke and lose legitimacy. It will also give certain nations legitimacy as they will portray themselves victims of some Western plot.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    They are hardly having there say but by closing out certain nations the UN will look like a joke and lose legitimacy. It will also give certain nations legitimacy as they will portray themselves victims of some Western plot.
    The UN couldn't look like more of a joke or be less legitimate when it gives credence to the likes of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Un, Saudi dictators and many others.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Which dictator is a legitimate representative who we should listen to?
    Why do you unquestionably assume that legitimacy can only be derived from representation? Some might argue that just as in the case with children needing a guardian for their own good, the generally ignorant mass could do with a select elite who have dedicated their lives to understanding economics, politics and so on, as long as they can be made sure to act out of the interests of others and not themselves.

    Even so, our limited democracy the people's say doesn't really go much beyond choosing between a small pool of similar candidates? People wanted to force through a referendum on the EU and the current government said no. Over a million people took to the streets to protest participation in Iraq and the Government did it anyway. Large scale protests and campaigning was done to prevent the raising of tuition fees and they were upped anyway.

    When a party does suggest some sort of radical policy there is no guarantee that they will go through with it ie Lib Dems. Major political change in the last century has not generally been driven by the will of the people but by politics. The opening of the franchise was done for the political gain of the whigs rather than sympathy for the middle classes.

    Even within our system we have things that seem at odds with the ideas of liberal democracy. Where would unpopular, secret, mass surveillance of the people for example fit in with the liberal or democratic ideas of any theorists you have read? Isn't this domestic spying, long associated with stasi-esque regimes, something that a mere 2 years ago we were using to criticize the government in Syria for?

    Therefore I find your superior attitude towards democracy, well at least our current practice of it, to be somewhat delusional and not based on any real observance of the wider world.
 
 
 
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