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German targets (WHU, Mannheim) vs Warwick with no relevant work experience

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Non-EU applicant, audit internships at PwC, E&Y, KPMG for in total 9 months, one year work experience as an internal auditor at a retail company

I am currently thinking of applying to business schools in either Germany or the UK. I would rather like working in IB in London than Frankfurt, yet i do currently not have any relevant work experience. As studying at German universities takes two years, it will allow me to do a summer internship at a BB thereby have a full time position.

My main concern with Warwick is the fact that i will not be able to do any internship and there will be so many applicants with relevant work experience at interviews at BBs. What is the chance of finding a position in investment banking division in London after graduation from WHU. Or the route is Frankfurt, two years, then London?

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Reply 1

surfmonkey

Since you don't have any relevant experience I would suggest to join a two year Master's degree instead of Warwick's one year program, but this is definitely the more risk averse choice. However, I would also advise to apply to other two year programs as well, especially St. Gallen (Banking & Finance or Accounting & Finance), Bocconi Finance and SSE Finance should definitely be on your list. All of these programs are two years and send a large amount of interns and grads into the city of London, hence have a large alumni base.

Furthermore, I'm German and interned at banks in Frankfurt and I can tell you that it's hard to get an internship in Frankfurt without being fluent in German. It can be done, but it's a lot harder to obtain an internship with mediocre German skills, especially in IBD (M&A / Coverage / DCM / ECM) where some large cap clients still prefer German documentation (I can name you two large Dax30 firm that pulled this off during the time of my internship). Markets is more likely but since you said you are interested to join the IBD of a bank, I thougt that it's important to now.

Go for Warwick.

Warwick is a banking breeding ground.

Can't you off-cycle (probably too late for summer apps)/intern in your home country before WBS courses start?

Reply 4

oshn

Original post by miml

Warwick is a banking breeding ground.

Can't you off-cycle (probably too late for summer apps)/intern in your home country before WBS courses start?

Unfortunately not. In terms of HSG MBF, i know the program is excellent, but my gpa is 2.85/4 and very strong applicants with very high GMAT scores (+700) apply for HSG MBF. Can anyone give some details on average salary of an IBD analyst residing in Frankfurt?

Reply 5

surfmonkey

Original post by oshn

EUR65k base + bonus (EUR25-35k at RS/LAZ-type of firm)

Reply 6

Observatory

Does Germany have targets? My understanding had been that German universities were not very stratified by student ability.

Reply 7

oshn

Original post by surfmonkey

EUR65k base + bonus (EUR25-35k at RS/LAZ-type of firm)

Thanks. Can you also confirm that for London or Frankfurt IBD recruitment, MsC in Finance at WHU is better than MsC in Management at WHU. Because I heard that WHU is renowned for its Management degree.
What are the working hours like in IBD in Frankfurt? People working in London say they work 80-120 hours a week depending on the group or time.
Do German banks provide visa sponsorships for those who need it?

Reply 8

surfmonkey

Original post by oshn

Both are sufficient for IBD in Frankfurt for sure and I highly doubt you won't get invited in London due to a Management degree instead of a Finance degree from WHU and vice versa. However, you're right, the MSc Management is WHU's flagship program (as also confirmed in several rankings).

Working hours in IBD in Frankfurt are typical IBD hours, i.e. they are not much different than those in London, New York or any other financial centre. You will still be grinding 80h+ and there are some groups and banks (Morgan Stanley f.e.) which will work you to the bone. However, large banks have introduced several rules to improve work conditions for juniors as you might have read in the news (including mandatory vacations, blackout period from Fr evening to Sun Morning, meaning that you at least have the full Saturday off, which is quite an improvement, amongst others). From my experiences at two leading banks it seemed like hours in London are a little better due to two reasons: 1) at least at those two banks, London teams tend to go out together on thursday nights to grab a few pints in a pub whereas this rarely happend in the Frankfurt office 2) in London they tend to leave earlier on Fridays whereas in Frankfurt I was sitting until late at night on many Fridays. However, if there's work to be done, then this might change and you will grind away regardless of the location.

One last word @all regarding hours: I know, some of you guys might have had different experiences so this is not meant to be a generalisation but rather a description of my own experiences.

Concerning Visa: I honestly don't know, but you definitely need a damn good reason to get hired over a German native speaker with comparable experience and an EU passport.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 9

surfmonkey

Original post by Observatory

Does Germany have targets? My understanding had been that German universities were not very stratified by student ability.

Yes, Germany does have targets, however, the gap b/w target universities and normal universities is not as wide as in the UK with Oxbridge, LSE, etc. or France with their Grande Ecole system. Even the most sought after jobs such as Investment Banking or MBB(RB)-Consulting are in reach for students from normal universities since in Germany recruiters put much emphasis on stellar grades + internship experience. At a place like Goldman or McKinsey, a large part of the class might come from typical targets such as Mannheim, St. Gallen, WHU, EBS, Munich (LMU / TUM), but there are still plenty of people from average German universities that have 1) strong grades 2) plenty of internship experience.

But attending one of the mentioned universities will make recruiting easier due to their brand name and their large alumni base in banking and consulting.

In London however, it's quite hard to break in from an average university and Germans typically attended Mannheim, WHU, EBS or St. Gallen. One striking advantage of these universities is that their semester dates are aligned to the international calendar which allows their students to recruit for summer internships in London in June and July, whereas average public universities (and also LMU or TUM) will have lectures + exams until early August..

Reply 10

MattRaupa

Target universities in Germany are (in descending order): Mannheim, WHU, EBS.
Other universities that are good, but not tier 1, are Munich and probably Cologne.

Reply 11

utku943

What do you think about ESMT, ESCP and HHL Leipzig? Are their locations a big advantage as you can do part-time work as a student while it is pretty hard to find one in WHU or EBS since they are in small towns?