Spread the word! All you need to know for the EU referendum!

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Rorschach II
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#1
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I'll start off with the economics because people don't seem to care about democracy.

1) Economic

1) Higher energy prices in the EU.
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(1) The EU Emission Trading Scheme increases the cost of producing energy. To compensate energy providers increase energy prices.

(2) Energy providers can relocate, reducing competition. Energy prices can further increase.

(3) When businesses relocate the desired result of reducing carbon emission isn’t achieved (to the same extent) because the businesses have relocated to countries where green taxes are not implemented.
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2) Hurt steel industry in the EU & by our current europhilic government.
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(1) High energy prices.

(2) The EU Emission Trading Scheme increase the cost of producing steel.

(3) Dumped steel (selling steel below cost of production) namely by China, damaging UK competition. The EU has a tariff of 9% on this dumped Chinese steel, as opposed to the USA, who has a tariff of ~250%. Our current UK government rejected the idea of a proposal by the EU to increase said tariff(s) very recently. (This one is now out of the EU's control.)
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3) Costly and immoral EU membership fee of ~£24 million a day (accounting for EU rebate and EU budget spent on UK.) It is immoral because EU budget spent on UK comes with an EU label; propaganda, despite the excess of £24 million a day.
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(1) EU membership costs the UK £55 million/day, but when considering the UK rebate (which are in jeopardy), the EU membership fees cost the UK £35 million/day

(2) The EU Budget that is spent on the UK still has the UK spending an excess of ~£24 million/day.

(3) The EU spends a portion of its budget on the UK, further compensating the fees (but not fully.) The UK doesn’t get to decide what this money is spent on.

(4) The things commissioned by the EU with this money come with an EU label; propaganda, despite the excess of money the UK pays into the EU.
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4) Higher food prices in the UK and the stalling of development in LEDCs.
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The Common Agricultural Policy, a part of the Common External Tariff, puts a tariff on many non-EU agricultural goods to protect EU trade. This reduces competition, so food prices can and have gone higher. This increases living costs. This also has the effect of hurting agricultural business in many LEDCs, stalling its development. In effect it deprives non-EU farmers from a market of 500+ million.
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5) The EU will continue to to trade with the UK; the UK is the biggest export market for goods (though not services) for the rest of the EU.

6) The EU is the only shrinking trading bloc in the world (though I admit I don't understand the full implications of this, so dispute away.)(I don't understand the intricacies of the fisheries argument and the Common Fisheries Policy, so I haven't included it on this list.)
2) Democratic

Also "Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon." Rorschach

A quote I like, which is applicable in this situation.

1) MEPs cannot initiate, repeal or amend legislation.

2) It is illegal for European Commissioners to work in the interest of a member state, so each member state doesn't have a representative in the European Commission, which is the body that can initiate legislation.

3) The EU has a system of degressive proportionality, which leads the UK to having only 9.72% of the voting power, despite the UK constituting 12.74% of the EU population.

This statement is a bit hyperbolic, but "back to the days of rotten boroughs!"
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a) The UK only has 73 MEPs.
b) There are altogether 751 MEPs.
c) The UK only has 9.72% of the voting power. (73 / 751 x 100)
d) The UK population constitutes 12.74% of the EU population.
Note: I haven't accounted for the UK population who aren't British citizens, so dispute away.

4) Invalid counter-arguments
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(1) "The UK has an unelected monarchy, and laws require Royal Assent."
Royal Assent has a track record of just being a formality; it's hasn't not been granted since 1708.

(2) "The UK has an unelected House of Lords."
The House of Lords is a revision chamber that can only delay non-finance-related legislation for up to a year. Although not ideal, it just isn't a priority for change.

(3) "The UK has low turnout rates for MEPs."
I acknowledge that the UK would have more influence if turnout rates were higher, but that doesn't discount the democratic deficit in the EU.
Yes, an amalgamation of two previous threads I made, but reformatted and more user-friendly, with a bit added.
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1420787
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I'd rather Remain.
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math42
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I am leaning towards leave but still ready to fall on either side, as the thing about the democracy argument is it's not like our own system is democratic. Less than 25% of those registered voted for conservatives last year if my calculations are right and even ignoring those who chose not to vote it is still less than 2/5 of all actual votes. More democracy beats less democracy I guess.
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Naveed-7
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Definitely voting leave. I believe it is the right choice. It is a choice that will protect us and our families from entering an EU dictatorship that will rob us and not let us get out after a long time.
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leinad2012
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Almost stopped reading when you used the term "costly and immoral EU membership fee", as the immoral bit is an opinion and thus it seems most of this post is opinion and not fact.
Also the EU isn't shrinking, it may be in terms of %age of world gdp, but certainly not nominally.
Also 99% sure the UK isn't the biggest export market for the rest of the EU, and you've provided no links to proof of this statement at all.

Would overall say this is a solid ****post, would give it a 2/10
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Sunghyunah
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Don't clickbait with "All you need to know" and give a completely one-sided biased post. If it's all you need to know you should have provided balance with the remain arguments as well; not just pull apart a few of them.
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leinad2012
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Actually every single one of those economic arguments is piss poor from the looks of it. I'll rebuttle them in a bit.

You're pretty much the worst spokesman for the leave campaign I've seen, and I've watched Boris talk his garbage in the debates. Like, I'm firmly remain, and I could put forward a stronger argument for leaving than you have
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JordanL_
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(Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
I am leaning towards leave but still ready to fall on either side, as the thing about the democracy argument is it's not like our own system is democratic. Less than 25% of those registered voted for conservatives last year if my calculations are right and even ignoring those who chose not to vote it is still less than 2/5 of all actual votes. More democracy beats less democracy I guess.
Not necessarily. EU legislation has been overwhelmingly beneficial for us. The stuff that people tend to complain about are things like consumer protections and climate change regulations - horribly short-sighted. It costs us money in the short-term but it's completely necessary.

Consider this: the EU recently tried to introduce legislation that would reduce deaths due to air pollution. Our government alone blocked it. The EU protects our interests more than our elected government ever have.
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Axion
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(Original post by JordanL_)
Not necessarily. EU legislation has been overwhelmingly beneficial for us. The stuff that people tend to complain about are things like consumer protections and climate change regulations - horribly short-sighted. It costs us money in the short-term but it's completely necessary.

Consider this: the EU recently tried to introduce legislation that would reduce deaths due to air pollution. Our government alone blocked it. The EU protects our interests more than our elected government ever have.
Yeah I agree with this totally.

The Leave campaign are in large very shallow and surprisingly patriotic. They hate the idea of the EU setting rules, yet when you ask them,

What EU Rules are there that harm you on a personal level and that you would repeal?


I have rarely got any sort of coherent answer because the reality is that most EU regulations are very acceptable for consumers. The reality is that the mostly just care about immigration. They couldn't care less about product regulations etc.

TL,DR - This 'Democracy' argument to the average 'Joe Leaver' is just about immigration.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by offhegoes)
I'd rather Remain.
You might, but this referendum is forever. In 30yrs time migration might be forgotten and the economics may have changed. The German AfD and Austrian Freedom Party might be in power and the EU has its own army that is marching through London to enforce the latest round of "cleansings" within the United States of Europe. And you will be to blame because this could have been a free country had you voted Leave.
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Axion
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(Original post by newpersonage)
You might, but this referendum is forever. In 30yrs time migration might be forgotten and the economics may have changed. The German AfD and Austrian Freedom Party might be in power and the EU has its own army that is marching through London to enforce the latest round of "cleansings" within the United States of Europe. And you will be to blame because this could have been a free country had you voted Leave.
What a delusional viewpoint, ridiculous fearmongering and trying to attribute blame to something that won't happen anyway.

You can be pretty sure that if the EU, for whatever reason, started to betray its own members and do things particularly out of the ordinary, then we'll just hold another referendum when the consensus would be to leave. There is no lock-in so if things get bad enough in say 30 years, of course we can just pack up and leave.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by Axion)
What a delusional viewpoint, ridiculous fearmongering and trying to attribute blame to something that won't happen anyway.

You can be pretty sure that if the EU, for whatever reason, started to betray its own members and do things particularly out of the ordinary, then we'll just hold another referendum when the consensus would be to leave. There is no lock-in so if things get bad enough in say 30 years, of course we can just pack up and leave.
You know that the Eurozone has already finished Stage 1 of Union and that was the primary reason for Cameron's failed renegotiations. As Cameron said to the EU President at the beginning of his renegotiation letter:

"There are today effectively two sorts of members of the European Union. There are Euro members and non-Euro members."

If we vote Remain it will be taken as evidence that the UK wants the same union as the rest of the EU. Eurozone Stage 2 Union, Political Union, starts next year. We will either be marginalised or have to join them. If we join their political union then any further referendums will depend on a vote in the European Parliament, not in the UK regional assembly - another referendum wont happen.
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1420787
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(Original post by newpersonage)
You might, but this referendum is forever. In 30yrs time migration might be forgotten and the economics may have changed. The German AfD and Austrian Freedom Party might be in power and the EU has its own army that is marching through London to enforce the latest round of "cleansings" within the United States of Europe. And you will be to blame because this could have been a free country had you voted Leave.
Scaremongering much? We are voting for whether or not we want the UK to remain in the EU, not based on the particular political parties that may or may not be in power in the next few decades.

Didn't you get that memo from the Leave camp?
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newpersonage
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(Original post by JordanL_)
Not necessarily. EU legislation has been overwhelmingly beneficial for us. The stuff that people tend to complain about are things like consumer protections and climate change regulations - horribly short-sighted. It costs us money in the short-term but it's completely necessary.

Consider this: the EU recently tried to introduce legislation that would reduce deaths due to air pollution. Our government alone blocked it. The EU protects our interests more than our elected government ever have.
But a Remain vote is for life and for the lives of future generations..

You know that the Eurozone has already finished Stage 1 of Union and that was the primary reason for Cameron's failed renegotiations. As Cameron said to the EU President at the beginning of his renegotiation letter:

"There are today effectively two sorts of members of the European Union. There are Euro members and non-Euro members."

If we vote Remain it will be taken as evidence that the UK wants the same union as the rest of the EU. Eurozone Stage 2 Union, Political Union, starts next year. We will either be marginalised or have to join them. If we join their political union then any further referendums will depend on a vote in the European Parliament, not in the UK regional assembly - another referendum wont happen (indeed this referendum only happened by accident).

If the EU swings far right or far left the UK will have to follow. This referendum is not about promises and bribes offered now. It is about 20 or 100 years time.
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JordanL_
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(Original post by newpersonage)
But a Remain vote is for life and for the lives of future generations..

You know that the Eurozone has already finished Stage 1 of Union and that was the primary reason for Cameron's failed renegotiations. As Cameron said to the EU President at the beginning of his renegotiation letter:

"There are today effectively two sorts of members of the European Union. There are Euro members and non-Euro members."

If we vote Remain it will be taken as evidence that the UK wants the same union as the rest of the EU. Eurozone Stage 2 Union, Political Union, starts next year. We will either be marginalised or have to join them. If we join their political union then any further referendums will depend on a vote in the European Parliament, not in the UK regional assembly - another referendum wont happen (indeed this referendum only happened by accident).

If the EU swings far right or far left the UK will have to follow. This referendum is not about promises and bribes offered now. It is about 20 or 100 years time.
It's not a vote for life though, that's scaremongering. We can leave at any time. If the EU ever starts acting against our interests, then public opinion will obviously change. We can have another referendum, or just elect a party that will take us out of the EU.

We shouldn't leave now because of what might happen.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by offhegoes)
Scaremongering much? We are voting for whether or not we want the UK to remain in the EU, not based on the particular political parties that may or may not be in power in the next few decades.
This referendum is not about the bribes and promises being offered for your vote now. A Remain vote will be taken as approval for being in an EU where the Eurozone is politically united and holds all the power. It will be taken as approval for joining the new United States of Europe that will be a politically united Eurozone . If we join such a Union there will be no more referendums, the European Parliament would never approve them.

This is not scaremongering. Eurozone Union Stage 1 is already complete and Stage 2 is starting in 2017. Cameron's failed renegotiations were about Stage 1:

As Cameron said to the EU President at the beginning of his renegotiation letter:

"There are today effectively two sorts of members of the European Union. There are Euro members and non-Euro members."

So think long and hard on whether you want to commit future generations in the UK to government by the EU. That is what this referendum is about.
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newpersonage
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(Original post by JordanL_)
It's not a vote for life though, that's scaremongering. We can leave at any time. If the EU ever starts acting against our interests, then public opinion will obviously change. We can have another referendum, or just elect a party that will take us out of the EU.

We shouldn't leave now because of what might happen.
We can leave at any time NOW but a Remain vote changes that entirely. When the rest of the EU forms a political union, scheduled to occur by 2025 (see http://www.discovertheeu.co.uk/ ) , we will have to decide whether to join them or leave. What will happen? The political parties will point out that there was a referendum in the UK only 9 yrs ago that said REMAIN so the political parties will take us into full union without any further referendum.

This referendum is your last chance to ensure that future generations enjoy a self governing UK. Dont throw away our country!
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Rorschach II
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(Original post by offhegoes)
I'd rather Remain.
offhegoes

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IAMADAM27
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God save our gracious Nigel!
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nexttimeigetvpn
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Oh no the EU is 'undemocratic'

I mean we really want this bunch to control our laws, don't we?

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