The Student Room Group

Who decides morality?

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Original post by QE2
*sigh*
You are conducting your argument from the position of assumed objective morality. That what we believe here and now is the objective standard that all past and future events must be judged.

This is fundamentally wrong. Morality is dependent on context.
There are arguments based on innate empathy that can be used to explain why certain things are possibly universally better or worse (which is why almost every society has had rules against murder, theft and perjury - but always qualified in the context of that society), but morality is still dependent on the society that supports it.
Slavery, sexism, etc is obviously not "objectively immoral" because there were, and are societies that consider them to be acceptable.

You need to stop thinking that a subjective morality becomes objective once it is held by a society. It is still subjective!


I am not arguing that subjective morality becomes objective, only that nothing substantial can be said against subjective moralities that are different from our own. I don't think there is any persuasive argument, evidence or line of reasoning that can establish this without either assuming objective morality or smuggling in unjustified value judgements.

And yet, the reality is that atheists seem to find it easier to condemn actions that cause harm and suffering, while religionists often seem to have trouble rejecting such actions. Which is why we see these regular threads where religionists attempt to defend slavery, mass murder, torture, discrimination, oppression of belief, etc.

Perhaps it's because we have not tied ourselves to an arbitrary, brutal, ancient Middle Eastern morality and labelled it "objective"?


My point is more that atheists have no grounds for their condemnation, not that they are unwilling to condemn.
u cud argue that morality is decided upon by soceity , im currently studying Alevel Sociolagy and i learn about how Crime and deviance is socially constructed . Accorfing to functionalists deviance is socially constructed as certain acts are seen by society as wrong , however to some people it may be seen as fine , therefore in my opinion i beleive that it is contructed
Original post by Hariex

From what I have read, both you and QE2 accept that Nazi and ISIS culture has just as much credibility, support and justification as our western culture. Put simply, why is western morality better than theirs?


You keep telling us we think that. I for one do not believe it. ISIS, for instance, grounds its morality in the Koran which is a nasty book produced in the seventh century specifically to motivate people to act in order to further Mohammed's political aims. That morality is misogynistic, aggressive and pretty barbaric, and not suitable for twenty-first century use. It is, of course, an Abrahamic document and you would. I suspect, claim it to be within your objective morality. It is abhorrent to me (as are ISIS).

Our morality is better than theirs simply because it is more suited to our current society in the west, and to the way we, as a society, think and live our lives.
Original post by Hariex

My point is more that atheists have no grounds for their condemnation, not that they are unwilling to condemn.


Of course we do. We make a judgement on the morality of an act and go from there. We certainly don't used an old book of fairy tales to inform our judgement and to think for us. I guess most modern atheists would not judge homosexual behaviour to be immoral, and certainly our society doesn't, so our subjective morality differs in detail from that of many religious people like you.

You might be better discussing with religious people why they don't follow the supposed objective morality laid down in the Bible. After all, many don't agree with what is written there, yet they claim to be believers in it and its message.
Original post by Good bloke
You keep telling us we think that. I for one do not believe it. ISIS, for instance, grounds its morality in the Koran which is a nasty book produced in the seventh century specifically to motivate people to act in order to further Mohammed's political aims. That morality is misogynistic, aggressive and pretty barbaric, and not suitable for twenty-first century use. It is, of course, an Abrahamic document and you would. I suspect, claim it to be within your objective morality. It is abhorrent to me (as are ISIS).

Our morality is better than theirs simply because it is more suited to our current society in the west, and to the way we, as a society, think and live our lives.


Everything in bold in you response is, in my opinion, an unfounded 'X is bad' value judgement. Who decides what is barbaric and misogynistic, or what is suitable for the 21st century? If it is just our culture then misogynists can just argue the opposite with as much effectiveness.

Of course we do. We make a judgement on the morality of an act and go from there. We certainly don't used an old book of fairy tales to inform our judgement and to think for us. I guess most modern atheists would not judge homosexual behaviour to be immoral, and certainly our society doesn't, so our subjective morality differs in detail from that of many religious people like you.

You might be better discussing with religious people why they don't follow the supposed objective morality laid down in the Bible. After all, many don't agree with what is written there, yet they claim to be believers in it and its message.


But if your judgement on the morality of an act is culturally-relative and based on unjustified value judgements, is it that more preferable than religious morality? Aren't both inadequate?
Original post by Hariex
Everything in bold in you response is, in my opinion, an unfounded 'X is bad' value judgement. Who decides what is barbaric and misogynistic, or what is suitable for the 21st century? If it is just our culture then misogynists can just argue the opposite with as much effectiveness.

But if your judgement on the morality of an act is culturally-relative and based on unjustified value judgements, is it that more preferable than religious morality? Aren't both inadequate?


Society decides in the main, with scope for individual variation in some areas. Religious morality is, inevitably, ancient, outdated, unpopular, not suitable for modern western society and on the wane. So I suspect you are going to have to get used to common or garden non-religious morality.
Original post by Good bloke
Society decides in the main, with scope for individual variation in some areas. Religious morality is, inevitably, ancient, outdated, unpopular, not suitable for modern western society and on the wane. So I suspect you are going to have to get used to common or garden non-religious morality.


We are still left with the problem of not having anything substantial to say against those with a different culture to us. Everything you have mentioned in bold is ran unfounded 'X is bad' statement.
Original post by Hariex
We are still left with the problem of not having anything substantial to say against those with a different culture to us. Everything you have mentioned in bold is ran unfounded 'X is bad' statement.


There is no problem for me. I have developed in a culture that is itself developing. On the whole I like that culture, even though there are aspect I don't like. It, for me, is far better than other cultures I see around the world, and past cultures, including historical European one.

A culture based on superstitious beliefs is an abomination and seeks to stifle change - which is clearly necessary and which has clearly happened throughout history.

On those bases, I am perfectly entitled to criticise any culture I wish, including our own.

The fact that you cannot say 'I know that your culture is in accordance with a laid out standard' is of no consequence at all.

And, as I have already said, the laid-out standard you wish to use is itself an abomination, being ruled by laws (often useless and stifling) that were introduced on the supposed word of a cruel, arbitrary, unjust and downright nasty god.
Morality is a culturally relative socially constructed name for the feeling we get when we commit an action that is socially unacceptable. There is no one set objective meaning or feeling behind it, rather it is an ingrained by-product of being social creatures, but is a necessary aspect of interacting in a functional way with others. It does, however, carry an invaluable purpose in regulating undesired behaviour, for example, those without the capacity for it (lacking a necessary integral aspect, such as empathy) eg. Psychopaths, cannot behaviour in a way that is any other than chaotic in a societal role.
(edited 6 years ago)

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