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Original post by 64Lightbulbs
trans men are not women.

Are we just ignoring the dictionary now?

I propose that man now means croissant.
Original post by DiddyDec
Are we just ignoring the dictionary now?

I propose that man now means croissant.

do you think trans men are women?
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
an adult who identifies their internal experience of gender as female.
Do you think trans men are women?

I didn't say that.
What do you propose calling an individual with XX chromosomes?
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
do you think trans men are women?

By definition they are adult female humans, so yes.

It creates an interesting situation where they are both women and trans men at the same time :holmes:

Without the dictionary our language loses all meaning, quite literally.
Original post by glassalice
I didn't say that.
What do you propose calling an individual with XX chromosomes?

"an idividual with xx chromosomes" or "a person assigned female at birth/an afab person". Assuming that's the only information I get about this person
Original post by DiddyDec
By definition they are adult female humans, so yes.

It creates an interesting situation where they are both women and trans men at the same time :holmes:

Without the dictionary our language loses all meaning, quite literally.

Language evolves. Language already has very little meaning and can vary from person to person.
It creates an interesting situation where we need to come up with a new term to refer to biological sex because the terms we use to refer to biological sex and gender are often the same and used interchangeably when biological sex and gender are not.
Some examples might be "a person with xx chromosomes", "an afab person", or more specifically "a pregnant person/person who menstruates".
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
Language evolves. Language already has very little meaning and can vary from person to person.
It creates an interesting situation where we need to come up with a new term to refer to biological sex because the terms we use to refer to biological sex and gender are often the same and used interchangeably when biological sex and gender are not.
Some examples might be "a person with xx chromosomes", "an afab person", or more specifically "a pregnant person/person who menstruates".

Sorry none of the words you have written mean anything.

Spoiler

Original post by 64Lightbulbs
"an idividual with xx chromosomes" or "a person assigned female at birth/an afab person". Assuming that's the only information I get about this person

What word would you use to describe the collective experiences of 'individuals with XX chromosomes'?
(edited 3 years ago)
Reply 28
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
Yes but she implied that all people born with a female reproductive system are women. When they aren't. You are correct, only people born with a female reproductive system can menstruate, not everyone born with a female reproductive system is a woman. There's obviously a chance that it was not meant to be transphobic, but it's been pointed out to her that it could come off that way and she has refused to acknowledge it and apologize.

Their sex will always be female whether you'd like to admit it or not. You have voiced your opinion that sex is different than gender many times, so I know you have to agree..
Why should she have to apologize for something she didnt mean?

She also wrote a book about a male serial killer who dresses as a woman in order to kill women, and that's been a stereotype of trans women for a long time, and is quite worrisome at the very least. She also made this comment, "Many, myself included, believe we are watching a new kind of conversion therapy for young gay people". She expressed that she believes a large portion of trans people are actually just gay and trying to be straight which is also a very worrisome view. No one ever identifies as a bigot, so sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Eh? And? Are authors now not allowed to write books with characters that may represent old misconceptions? Men dressing up as ladies to harass women in private areas is not some made up concept that only has to do with trans people. It happens. If anything, one would think linking those situations back to trans people like you are is more transphobic than the book itself.
Second bit is just a stupid thing she said and doesnt make much sense in itself, even if she had established that she had a hatred for trans people.
Plenty of people are open and proud about being transphobic. Plenty of others are obvious about it. JK is not.

And I won't reply to post number 11 because Napp is very predictable in his arguments and usually just accuses me of something he has twisted my words to mean. I've already had two "discussions" with him in the past day, and I don't think I'd enjoy another.
You win an argument by convincing the other person, or someone else who may be watching the thread. I don't think I will do either, regardless of the validity of my points, so there is no incentive for me to argue with him.

He merely asked for examples.. how can that be twisted..
Original post by DiddyDec
Sorry none of the words you have written mean anything.

Spoiler



All I said was that words can mean different things (colloquially) to different people. "Quite good" in American English means very good, whereas "quite good" in British English means pretty good.
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
All I said was that words can mean different things (colloquially) to different people. "Quite good" in American English means very good, whereas "quite good" in British English means pretty good.

You said and I quote:
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
Language already has very little meaning

This statement is demonstrably untrue.
Original post by LovelyMrFox
Their sex will always be female whether you'd like to admit it or not. You have voiced your opinion that sex is different than gender many times, so I know you have to agree..
Why should she have to apologize for something she didnt mean?

Eh? And? Are authors now not allowed to write books with characters that may represent old misconceptions? Men dressing up as ladies to harass women in private areas is not some made up concept that only has to do with trans people. It happens. If anything, one would think linking those situations back to trans people like you are is more transphobic than the book itself.
Second bit is just a stupid thing she said and doesnt make much sense in itself, even if she had established that she had a hatred for trans people.
Plenty of people are open and proud about being transphobic. Plenty of others are obvious about it. JK is not.

He merely asked for examples.. how can that be twisted..

Having a female sex and being a woman are different things. She wouldn't have to apologize for transphobia if it was something she didn't mean, she would would apologize for saying something that could be interpreted as transphobic. For example "I am sorry for a comment I made regarding the use of the phrase "people who menstruate". I recognize that this could be interpreted as transphobic, even if that was not my intent.

This thread isn't even about whether or not JK Rowling is transphobic, while I do think discussing what qualifies bigotry (intent, expression, etc.) is an interesting discussion.

You'd think it couldn't be twisted, wouldn't you?
Original post by DiddyDec
You said and I quote:

This statement is demonstrably untrue.

would you rather i changed it to "very little fixed meaning"? That wasn't even an attack on your position, just a comment about how language can change over time. I don't know why you're so focused on it.
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
would you rather i changed it to "very little fixed meaning"? That wasn't even an attack on your position, just a comment about how language can change over time. I don't know why you're so focused on it.

No, that would also be untrue. There are an estimated 170,000 defined words in the English language.
Without a defined language our society would fall to ruin, laws would be unenforceable because they would have no meaning.
Original post by DiddyDec
No, that would also be untrue. There are an estimated 170,000 defined words in the English language.
Without a defined language our society would fall to ruin, laws would be unenforceable because they would have no meaning.

the oxford english dictionary revised and added 500+ words in the last update.
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
the oxford english dictionary revised and added 500+ words in the last update.

No really sure what your point is here, you just seem to reinforcing my point that words have set definitions.
Original post by DiddyDec
No really sure what your point is here, you just seem to reinforcing my point that words have set definitions.

definitions are not fixed if they are updated regularly.
Reply 37
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
definitions are not fixed if they are updated regularly.

Not really.. some might but words tend to have fixed definitions for a reason, its the basis of all languages. Whilst some might change over time, gay for example, most retain their original definition. Or at best, slowly and irregularly change. To say that our dictionary gets a clean slate with every new addition of it is wrong.
Original post by 64Lightbulbs
"an idividual with xx chromosomes" or "a person assigned female at birth/an afab person". Assuming that's the only information I get about this person

So it's not that you think trans-women are women using the dictionary definition of women because it would be absurd to suggest that they could suddenly aquire an extra X chromosome and rid themselves of the Y, you have repurposed the word 'women' to mean a feeling.

You are essentially saying that to be a woman is to feel like a woman, trans women presumably do not feel the same as "individuals with XX chromosomes" because they have a completely different biology. Surely it is a kind erasure to suggest this.

If a being a woman is to have a subjective internal experience that you attribute to being a women, a type of existentialism, the word becomes meaningless to anyone else but yourself.

Would it be, in your view wrong for people with XX chromosomes to set up breastfeeding support groups, pregnancy support groups, hell even book clubs solely for their use?
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by glassalice
So it's not that you think trans-women are women using the dictionary definition of women because it would be absurd to suggest that they could suddenly aquire an extra X chromosome and rid themselves of the Y, you have repurposed the word 'women' to mean a feeling.

You are essentially saying that to be a woman is to feel like a woman, trans women presumably do not feel the same as "individuals with XX chromosomes" because they have a completely different biology. Surely it is a kind erasure to suggest this.

If a being a woman is to have a subjective internal experience that you attribute to being a women, a type of existentialism, the word becomes meaningless to anyone else but yourself.

Would it be, in your view wrong for people with XX chromosomes to set up breastfeeding support groups, pregnancy support groups, hell even book clubs solely for their use?

I think the dictionary definition of woman is just an adult human of the female sex, and since we more often use woman to refer to a person's gender, that the dictionary definition is outdated.
To be a gender all you have to do is feel like that gender because gender is a subjective psychological experience.
Oh lookey there you figured it out. gender is a social construct that only holds the meaning we give it.
Odd question, but not specifically, no? It would be weird to set up a book club like that because getting you rchromosomes tested (there's probably a name for that) to qualify for a book club just seems like a strange experience.

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