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The Proof is Trivial!

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Original post by DJMayes
Solution 485

Spoiler


It feels like you're using the Axiom of Choice here to select your pairwise disjoint open intervals. I'd much rather you didn't :P
Original post by Smaug123
It feels like you're using the Axiom of Choice here to select your pairwise disjoint open intervals. I'd much rather you didn't :P


I'm not sure how to prove this without choice (or at least countable choice). I may not even be true without it.
A nice way of doing 485, which doesn't involve the axiom of choice, is setting up an equivalence relation.

Spoiler

Original post by Noble.
A nice way of doing 485, which doesn't involve the axiom of choice, is setting up an equivalence relation.

Spoiler



You used choice in the bolded bit I think.
Original post by james22
You used choice in the bolded bit I think.


I don't think axiom of choice is needed. The rationals are unique from the equivalence relation and then the rationals can be well-ordered without the axiom of choice.
Original post by Noble.
I don't think axiom of choice is needed. The rationals are unique from the equivalence relation and then the rationals can be well-ordered without the axiom of choice.


It may well be possible to pick the rationals without choice, but just saying they exist and so you can pick them is certainly using choice. You would need to give an explicit contruction of each rational somehow which I don't think can be done.
Original post by Noble.
I don't think axiom of choice is needed. The rationals are unique from the equivalence relation and then the rationals can be well-ordered without the axiom of choice.


You are right, choice is not needed. Although it does simplify the argument slightly.
Problem 486**

24ln(9x)ln(9x)+ln(3+x) dx \displaystyle \int^{4}_{2} \dfrac{\sqrt{\ln (9-x)}}{\sqrt{\ln (9-x)} + \sqrt{\ln (3+x)}} \ dx
Original post by ThatPerson
Problem 486**

24ln(9x)ln(9x)+ln(3+x) dx \displaystyle \int^{4}_{2} \dfrac{\sqrt{\ln (9-x)}}{\sqrt{\ln (9-x)} + \sqrt{\ln (3+x)}} \ dx


Solution 486

Spoiler

Original post by arkanm
486, just let ln(9-x)=a*ln(3+x)


Could you elaborate on this at all? Is this a substitution - if so is a a the variable? What form does this turn the integral into, and how does it help you evaluate it? As it is this doesn't solve anything. On the assumption that you have done this and simply haven't typed it up here I would be interested in seeing it as I don't quite see how anything related to the tidbit you've written could work out nicely.
Original post by DJMayes
Solution 486

Spoiler



That was Putnam 1987/B1 if you're interested.
Original post by ThatPerson
That was Putnam 1987/B1 if you're interested.


That was a Putnam problem? I'm surprised; I thought they tended to be a fair bit harder. The first couple of questions of the 2014 Putnam paper are quite nice ones if you are interested.
Original post by DJMayes
That was a Putnam problem? I'm surprised; I thought they tended to be a fair bit harder. The first couple of questions of the 2014 Putnam paper are quite nice ones if you are interested.


It does seem to be unusually easy. Most Putnam questions are beyond my reach at the moment but I'll see :tongue:

Also, after unsuccessfully trying to compute jjpneed1's integral, I thought I'd search online and found this solution, which makes me feel better about my failed attempt.
Original post by ThatPerson
It does seem to be unusually easy. Most Putnam questions are beyond my reach at the moment but I'll see :tongue:

Also, after unsuccessfully trying to compute jjpneed1's integral, I thought I'd search online and found this solution, which makes me feel better about my failed attempt.


That looks like a more complicated version of mine. How could I forget it equals π/2 \pi /2 though? What a nice result
Original post by jjpneed1
That looks like a more complicated version of mine. How could I forget it equals π/2 \pi /2 though? What a nice result


Did you do it without complex analysis?
Original post by ThatPerson
Did you do it without complex analysis?


Split the original integral into a sum of two integrals (with same integrand): one from 0 to 1, other from 1 to infinity. Use x->1/x on the second and recombine the integrals. I think I then used integration by parts. From there you have to evaluate some relatively simpler integrals. It took me a while
Original post by jjpneed1
Split the original integral into a sum of two integrals (with same integrand): one from 0 to 1, other from 1 to infinity. Use x->1/x on the second and recombine the integrals. I think I then used integration by parts. From there you have to evaluate some relatively simpler integrals. It took me a while


Ah, that seems like a nice way of doing it.
Problem 487***

f:  (0,1)(0,1)f:\;(0,1)\to (0,1) satisfies f(x)<xf(x)<x. Let f^(x)=limnf(f(fn(x));\hat{f}(x) =\displaystyle \lim_{n\to\infty}\underbrace{f(f(\cdots f}_n(x)\cdots); can f^\hat{f} take uncountably many values?
Original post by Lord of the Flies
Problem 487***

f:  (0,1)(0,1)f:\;(0,1)\to (0,1) satisfies f(x)<xf(x)<x. Let f^(x)=limnf(f(fn(x));\hat{f}(x) =\displaystyle \lim_{n\to\infty}\underbrace{f(f(\cdots f}_n(x)\cdots); can f^\hat{f} take uncountably many values?

This seems too easy. yes since there are uncountably infinite real numbers between 0 and 1. Seems so easy I feel like I've missed something, or at least f(x) can take uncountably many values.
Original post by Jammy Duel
This seems too easy. yes since there are uncountably infinite real numbers between 0 and 1. Seems so easy I feel like I've missed something, or at least f(x) can take uncountably many values.


Can you contruct such an f?

I've had a go and there are lots of annoying things happening.

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