How is it fair that...
Is it fair that two people studying the same course at the same university are given different amounts in loans?
Now let me put this in context of what i mean. Is it right to give one individual £8000 and another barely £3000 just because ones parents are "rich". This is where this whole thing fails. People assume that just because someone is poor they have no money (fair enough) and just because someone is rich they should pay for everything. How is it fair that the upper class have to pay higher taxes etc and when their kids are at university they still have to pay a minimum of £6-7k a year?
Richer people tend to have more expensive lifestyles therefore they dont have unlimited amount of "disposable income" as things like there mortages are higher etc.
I think the best change would be to hand out loans dependent on the university. for example an individual going to London Met should NEVER be given £27k tuition loan and then around 40-50k of maintenance because the graduate jobs for that university is the equivalent to Mc-donalds. It would also make sense to only hand out what the degree will pay after graduation. For example degrees such as medicine should get higher loans as the graduates will be able to pay back whereas degrees such as Theatre and Drama and all other mickey mouse degrees should be paid less as their graduate job prospects are low and their income will probably only reach the threshold after many years.
This is NOT to offend anybody just want to get peoples views on this topic
Now let me put this in context of what i mean. Is it right to give one individual £8000 and another barely £3000 just because ones parents are "rich". This is where this whole thing fails. People assume that just because someone is poor they have no money (fair enough) and just because someone is rich they should pay for everything. How is it fair that the upper class have to pay higher taxes etc and when their kids are at university they still have to pay a minimum of £6-7k a year?
Richer people tend to have more expensive lifestyles therefore they dont have unlimited amount of "disposable income" as things like there mortages are higher etc.
I think the best change would be to hand out loans dependent on the university. for example an individual going to London Met should NEVER be given £27k tuition loan and then around 40-50k of maintenance because the graduate jobs for that university is the equivalent to Mc-donalds. It would also make sense to only hand out what the degree will pay after graduation. For example degrees such as medicine should get higher loans as the graduates will be able to pay back whereas degrees such as Theatre and Drama and all other mickey mouse degrees should be paid less as their graduate job prospects are low and their income will probably only reach the threshold after many years.
This is NOT to offend anybody just want to get peoples views on this topic
Scroll to see replies
And who is to say life is or should be fair? Life is not that simple. Running a country is not that simple. Running a students loans system is not that simple and sometimes people get a harder deal of it. is it fair? No. But it is simply not feasible to run a successful first world country and have everything be fair. And remember people have very differing opinions of what is and is not fair.
Besides this thread has been done to death, and judging by your 4th paragraph regardless of whether you say you're trying to offend people or not you are clearly looking for an argument with your elitist attitude.
Besides this thread has been done to death, and judging by your 4th paragraph regardless of whether you say you're trying to offend people or not you are clearly looking for an argument with your elitist attitude.
Original post by SGHD26716
You sound like a annoyed rich person.
I agree Medicine courses should get more money because they are actually worthwhile in the long term.
I agree Medicine courses should get more money because they are actually worthwhile in the long term.
Im not trying to say people should not go university because they are poor.. But i find it EXTREMELY stupid how people are being given 8k+ to study pointless degrees such as Drama and Music when there are kids from deprived backgrounds trying to find money to fund for a medicine degree or a respected degree (economics, law, engineering cba to name them all but you get the point) and even with the loan they wont make ends meet.
Original post by SophieSmall
And who is to say life is or should be fair? Life is not that simple. Running a country is not that simple. Running a students loans system is not that simple and sometimes people get a harder deal of it. is it fair? No. But it is simply not feasible to run a successful first world country and have everything be fair. And remember people have very differing opinions of what is and is not fair.
Besides this thread has been done to death, and judging by your 4th paragraph regardless of whether you say you're trying to offend people or not you are clearly looking for an argument with your elitist attitude.
Besides this thread has been done to death, and judging by your 4th paragraph regardless of whether you say you're trying to offend people or not you are clearly looking for an argument with your elitist attitude.
So because im trying to put across my opinion it makes me an "elitist". I see I see
Original post by TSRFT8
Im not trying to say people should not go university because they are poor.. But i find it EXTREMELY stupid how people are being given 8k+ to study pointless degrees such as Drama and Music when there are kids from deprived backgrounds trying to find money to fund for a medicine degree or a respected degree (economics, law, engineering cba to name them all but you get the point) and even with the loan they wont make ends meet.
So because im trying to put across my opinion it makes me an "elitist". I see I see
So because im trying to put across my opinion it makes me an "elitist". I see I see
The way you put your opinion across was very clearly bitter and the language you used made it seem you think you're better than they are.
There are ways of putting opinions across without slating anything you don't agree with.
Spoiler
Original post by TSRFT8
No i just cant stand it when i see people wasting their loans just because they have been given the money, they have NO intention of paying it back and you`ll find a large chunk of people who go to universities such as London Met are more interested in the "free money" they will get rather than actually getting a degree. Now before you even say it I do know this is not a fair representation but i find it ridiculous this whole system is going off on parents income. I did not mean to offend you or anyone else btw so if i did then i do apologise.
And it is set up this way because it was one of the best ways to ensure that students from impoverished backgrounds still have the opportunity to go to university despite their parents being unable to help. Whilst also reducing the cost to the government by preventing giving more in loans (and previously grants) to those from higher income backgrounds who may not need it but will take it anyway
Is it is a perfect system? No. is it fair? Not really but that depends on what you define as fair. And does it come with disadvantages? Of course.
I will not deny that there are students who get stuck in tough situation because their parents may refuse to help. Or that the threshold for the loan amounts may be too low which squeezes parents and students from the middle income into a difficult financial situation, particularly if they have several children going to university at once.
I am also not going to pretend it is a perfect system, and neither am I going to pretend there is an easy solution to making it fairer for everyone. because you simply cannot win them all and I see no way to make it fair for everyone whilst also making it economically feasible for the government and the student loans company.
And your argument of those wasting away their loans is largely irrelevant, as it does not just apply to the people who do degrees you deem unworthy or at universities you deem low grade. There are also plenty of student studying well sought after degrees who piss away their loans, and it's not something that can be easily fixed by punishing the many to get back at the few.
And I'm also not going to sit here and berate other degrees and students because I'm on a high horse and think my opinion is the only right one and think I know best, because I don't. And neither do you.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by SophieSmall
And I'm also not going to sit here and berate other degrees and students because I'm on a high horse and think my opinion is the only right one and think I know best, because I don't. And neither do you.
Im not criticizing degrees im just stating facts which everyone knows. A degree in a mickey mouse subject from a **** uni is just a waste of money and time whether you agree or not it wont change
Because we're not at the stage yet where we can divide higher education into education for education's sake and industrial training and so we have to give equal loans to every course, and if we tried to do that there would be a rather vocal outcry because the people who would be losing their funding are also the ones who currently think university should be free and they should get a massive maintenance grant.
As for maintenance dependent on parental income, the new system is quite fair with the minimum loan being £5400 which is a just about liveable amount for most unis, not ideal but doable, and it needs to be means tested otherwise you'd end up with everyone getting around £6,000 which sort of discriminates against the people from poorer families who are less able to be financially supported and less able to find jobs to support themselves. So you'd end up with some comfortable rich kids and poor kids living on the poverty line, at least with the current system you end up with some social mobility.
As for maintenance dependent on parental income, the new system is quite fair with the minimum loan being £5400 which is a just about liveable amount for most unis, not ideal but doable, and it needs to be means tested otherwise you'd end up with everyone getting around £6,000 which sort of discriminates against the people from poorer families who are less able to be financially supported and less able to find jobs to support themselves. So you'd end up with some comfortable rich kids and poor kids living on the poverty line, at least with the current system you end up with some social mobility.
Original post by TSRFT8
Is it fair that two people studying the same course at the same university are given different amounts in loans?
Now let me put this in context of what i mean. Is it right to give one individual £8000 and another barely £3000 just because ones parents are "rich". This is where this whole thing fails. People assume that just because someone is poor they have no money (fair enough) and just because someone is rich they should pay for everything. How is it fair that the upper class have to pay higher taxes etc and when their kids are at university they still have to pay a minimum of £6-7k a year?
Richer people tend to have more expensive lifestyles therefore they dont have unlimited amount of "disposable income" as things like there mortages are higher etc.
I think the best change would be to hand out loans dependent on the university. for example an individual going to London Met should NEVER be given £27k tuition loan and then around 40-50k of maintenance because the graduate jobs for that university is the equivalent to Mc-donalds. It would also make sense to only hand out what the degree will pay after graduation. For example degrees such as medicine should get higher loans as the graduates will be able to pay back whereas degrees such as Theatre and Drama and all other mickey mouse degrees should be paid less as their graduate job prospects are low and their income will probably only reach the threshold after many years.
This is NOT to offend anybody just want to get peoples views on this topic
Now let me put this in context of what i mean. Is it right to give one individual £8000 and another barely £3000 just because ones parents are "rich". This is where this whole thing fails. People assume that just because someone is poor they have no money (fair enough) and just because someone is rich they should pay for everything. How is it fair that the upper class have to pay higher taxes etc and when their kids are at university they still have to pay a minimum of £6-7k a year?
Richer people tend to have more expensive lifestyles therefore they dont have unlimited amount of "disposable income" as things like there mortages are higher etc.
I think the best change would be to hand out loans dependent on the university. for example an individual going to London Met should NEVER be given £27k tuition loan and then around 40-50k of maintenance because the graduate jobs for that university is the equivalent to Mc-donalds. It would also make sense to only hand out what the degree will pay after graduation. For example degrees such as medicine should get higher loans as the graduates will be able to pay back whereas degrees such as Theatre and Drama and all other mickey mouse degrees should be paid less as their graduate job prospects are low and their income will probably only reach the threshold after many years.
This is NOT to offend anybody just want to get peoples views on this topic
So in summary, OP is mad that people who dont need financial support are not offered as much financial support as people who do need it.
Everyone take notes, we got a real A* student here
Original post by TSRFT8
Pretty bad summary, probably should read it again. Atleast you tried to be funny i guess..
Its a fine summary.
Its just unlike you I dont feel the need to waffle and make a lot of superfluous and frankly grossly misinformed points
A poor family cannot afford to support their child through university. A family with enough money to only get the minimum loans can, but choose to spend it on other things. Nobody forces them to live in houses they can barely afford, go on multiple holidays, eat expensive foods or whatever else the money is going on.
Original post by TSRFT8
No i just cant stand it when i see people wasting their loans
What you're objecting to here, is how other people choose to spend their money. Which is really nobody's business but theirs, regardless of how they (legitimately) came by that money.
Original post by TSRFT8
Sorry when was this introduced?? Is this for London Universities only?
Everyone is entitled to a minimum Maintenance Loan, regardless of their household income. That's been the case for many years. For 2015 starters at uni outside London and living away from home, it's £3731 (in London, £5205). For 2016 starters these amounts will be £3821 and £5330, respectively.
Any Maintenance Loan above that amount (and the Maintenance Grant, which is being abolished) is calculated based on household income.
Original post by TSRFT8
Is it fair that two people studying the same course at the same university are given different amounts in loans?
I think the best change would be to hand out loans dependent on the university. for example an individual going to London Met should NEVER be given £27k tuition loan and then around 40-50k of maintenance because the graduate jobs for that university is the equivalent to Mc-donalds. It would also make sense to only hand out what the degree will pay after graduation. For example degrees such as medicine should get higher loans as the graduates will be able to pay back whereas degrees such as Theatre and Drama and all other mickey mouse degrees should be paid less as their graduate job prospects are low and their income will probably only reach the threshold after many years.
This is NOT to offend anybody just want to get peoples views on this topic
I think the best change would be to hand out loans dependent on the university. for example an individual going to London Met should NEVER be given £27k tuition loan and then around 40-50k of maintenance because the graduate jobs for that university is the equivalent to Mc-donalds. It would also make sense to only hand out what the degree will pay after graduation. For example degrees such as medicine should get higher loans as the graduates will be able to pay back whereas degrees such as Theatre and Drama and all other mickey mouse degrees should be paid less as their graduate job prospects are low and their income will probably only reach the threshold after many years.
This is NOT to offend anybody just want to get peoples views on this topic
Excuse me but theatre and drama is not a mickey mouse degree. It may seem this way to you who has never studied it, but as someone who is doing half of my degree is theatre, i can assure you that actually it is VERY hard!
ITT: Rich people problems. Tell us more about your difficult life OP.
Original post by TSRFT8
Might be VERY hard but its also VERY pointless. The difficulty of a degree does not equate to it being worth anything in the working world. It might be something you enjoy which is all great but paying 12-13k a year is plain stupid.
who are you to say that my degree is worthless? An employer? I doubt that very much
Original post by john2054
who are you to say that my degree is worthless? An employer? I doubt that very much
My dad works in banking, he would tell you a degree means **** all unless you have experience
Original post by sw651
My dad works in banking, he would tell you a degree means **** all unless you have experience
I agree a degree means bugger all without experience, but who said i wasn't going to get experience after i graduate? Plus i have a confirmed place on a masters in education after i get my ba, and then i am also considering applying for a phd for after that, if i get the grades. the phd will be in mental health. as to exactly what i want to do with all of these paper qualifications, assuming i get them? To be honest i'm not sure. Let me worry about getting them first okay thanks.
Original post by john2054
I agree a degree means bugger all without experience, but who said i wasn't going to get experience after i graduate? Plus i have a confirmed place on a masters in education after i get my ba, and then i am also considering applying for a phd for after that, if i get the grades. the phd will be in mental health. as to exactly what i want to do with all of these paper qualifications, assuming i get them? To be honest i'm not sure. Let me worry about getting them first okay thanks.
Waste of money and time. But hey, your life choices.
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