Swiss win EU case - Muslim girls must swim with boys
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Original post by RedManc
If they don't want to follow Swiss laws why don't they leave.
All the free stuff?
Original post by joe cooley
All the free stuff?
They should get deported
Original post by Charzhino
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38569428
To sum it up the European Court of Human Rights have backed up Swirzerland in a case where Muslim parents refused to send their young daughters to swimmimg classes which were mixed with other boys due to religious sentiments. The parents where fined, took the case to law and have now lost again.
Is this a straight forward ruling or is there a debate to be had whether the parents freedom of religious beliefs were impinged on and essentially told they were being bad parents?
To sum it up the European Court of Human Rights have backed up Swirzerland in a case where Muslim parents refused to send their young daughters to swimmimg classes which were mixed with other boys due to religious sentiments. The parents where fined, took the case to law and have now lost again.
Is this a straight forward ruling or is there a debate to be had whether the parents freedom of religious beliefs were impinged on and essentially told they were being bad parents?
Everyone repeat after me: the ECHR and the EU are two seperate entities. The ECHR predates the EU and was established by a UN resolution and spearheaded by Churchill, its influence was compounded by Blair's human rights act that meant all U.K. law has to abide by the ECHR, we'll still be in the ECHR after Brexit.
OP's an idiot with his clickbait titles...
Original post by Charzhino
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38569428
To sum it up the European Court of Human Rights have backed up Swirzerland in a case where Muslim parents refused to send their young daughters to swimmimg classes which were mixed with other boys due to religious sentiments. The parents where fined, took the case to law and have now lost again.
Is this a straight forward ruling or is there a debate to be had whether the parents freedom of religious beliefs were impinged on and essentially told they were being bad parents?
To sum it up the European Court of Human Rights have backed up Swirzerland in a case where Muslim parents refused to send their young daughters to swimmimg classes which were mixed with other boys due to religious sentiments. The parents where fined, took the case to law and have now lost again.
Is this a straight forward ruling or is there a debate to be had whether the parents freedom of religious beliefs were impinged on and essentially told they were being bad parents?
On this occasion, I agree with the way the court has ruled. It's part of school curriculum and is one of many important ways in which will help them integrate into Swiss society.
While in an ideal world the parents might have preferred to have non-mixed swimming lessons, as is 'the norm' in many Western countries, both male and females are taught together. I feel that while, of course, it's important to respect their personal beliefs, they should also accept the cultures and traditions of Switzerland.
It is natural to have beliefs and/or traditions which have been picked up from your country of origin, but if you choose to move to another country which has different beliefs and traditions, you should do your best to respect these. If I felt that I couldn't meet them then I may look at another country which might be better suited.
I really believe that in most cases 'immigration' isn't the problem, 'integration' is and their should be a greater focus on how to improve integration of immigrants. This is to try to ensure that the native population and immigrant population can get along well together and mix freely with each other.
Original post by Aph
I can't help but wonder if len would agree with all the stuff you come out with.
Len's definitely sound as a pound.
A UKIP voter, no doubt about it.
They are unlikely to be Swiss. I have distant relatives who spent their entire childhoods in Switzerland who had to pass a stringent test before they became Swiss. It is very hard for immigrants to become naturalised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law
.
Switzerland proves once again, it's the only sane country left in Europe. keep up the good work by not bowing down to a religious minority and letting it have some sort of special treatment it demands everywhere.
If the family don't like it, they can leave Switzerland - simple.
If the family don't like it, they can leave Switzerland - simple.
I think the ruling is fair.
Swimming is a lesson for life and in some cases can save your life yet the parents are more concerned about other boys seeing them.
Imo that is very short sighted. Like what can the boys even think about doing when there will be supervisors and quite frankly, everyone is more concerned about managing to swim that first length.
Swimming is a lesson for life and in some cases can save your life yet the parents are more concerned about other boys seeing them.
Imo that is very short sighted. Like what can the boys even think about doing when there will be supervisors and quite frankly, everyone is more concerned about managing to swim that first length.
Original post by Mr Moon Man
Good, it's them who have to follow our rules, not the the other way round.
That ****ing us and them mentality that wrecked Europe for centuries.
Original post by oShahpo
That ****ing us and them mentality that wrecked Europe for centuries.
Muslims are turning this into a us and them by refusing to assimilate
Original post by Mr Moon Man
Muslims are turning this into a us and them by refusing to assimilate
Yea it's true that a lot of Muslims also have this mentality, I am not blaming just one side. But it's just that when you say "they" taints the whole group with the actions of the isolationists, making you no better than them.
The children have a right to attend education, which includes swimming classes. The state enforces people's rights, so it fines parents who interfere. This is right and by the book.
The fact that children also may not wish to attend has no relevance, because as the liberal Mill said, the state can't force citizens to do what is best for them, except for underage citizens and "underage", uncivilised, barbaric races. In this case, we have both, since not only are they dealing with minors, but also bigoted and ignorant parents (but here I'm being purposely provocative, I don't share ideas that refer to "races", Mill was a great man of his times, in the same way as remarkable Latin authors agreed on slavery).
The fact that children also may not wish to attend has no relevance, because as the liberal Mill said, the state can't force citizens to do what is best for them, except for underage citizens and "underage", uncivilised, barbaric races. In this case, we have both, since not only are they dealing with minors, but also bigoted and ignorant parents (but here I'm being purposely provocative, I don't share ideas that refer to "races", Mill was a great man of his times, in the same way as remarkable Latin authors agreed on slavery).
Original post by Connor27
Everyone repeat after me: the ECHR and the EU are two seperate entities. The ECHR predates the EU and was established by a UN resolution and spearheaded by Churchill, its influence was compounded by Blair's human rights act that meant all U.K. law has to abide by the ECHR, we'll still be in the ECHR after Brexit.
OP's an idiot with his clickbait titles...
OP's an idiot with his clickbait titles...
It was a mistake, I cant change the title now. And even so how is it clickbait? Because whether its the EU or the ECHR, thats not the main point of the thread.
Hello, I am just going to interject here and state my opinion as a female Muslim living in Scotland.
I haven't read everything but i got the gist of what the conversation is about. My opinion on the matter is that I do feel that it is unnecessary for the parents to remove their pre-pubescent daughters from a co gender swimming lesson. As some people have stated, it honestly doesn't matter if they swim with the opposite gender at a pre-pubescent age due to that nothing concerning would happen at that age. I feel that the parent's are wrong in this case. If they are concerned about their daughter showing skin then can their daughters not just wear a wetsuit? I would understand the parent's if it was in an Islamic country and if their daughter was of pubescent age, however it is unnecessary in a liberal, western society.
I do feel that Muslims are not integrating with the western society as we should be, in my opinion. Though in Scotland, the majority of Muslims are integrated well within the rest of society. I do feel as Muslims we do need to work on our integration in the West and that is something that we are trying to promote to Muslims as many Mosques, in Scotland, are trying to stop Muslims from secluding themselves from the rest of society. This is something that we are trying to fix within the Muslim community so do not think that we do not want to integrate, we are trying!
I haven't read everything but i got the gist of what the conversation is about. My opinion on the matter is that I do feel that it is unnecessary for the parents to remove their pre-pubescent daughters from a co gender swimming lesson. As some people have stated, it honestly doesn't matter if they swim with the opposite gender at a pre-pubescent age due to that nothing concerning would happen at that age. I feel that the parent's are wrong in this case. If they are concerned about their daughter showing skin then can their daughters not just wear a wetsuit? I would understand the parent's if it was in an Islamic country and if their daughter was of pubescent age, however it is unnecessary in a liberal, western society.
I do feel that Muslims are not integrating with the western society as we should be, in my opinion. Though in Scotland, the majority of Muslims are integrated well within the rest of society. I do feel as Muslims we do need to work on our integration in the West and that is something that we are trying to promote to Muslims as many Mosques, in Scotland, are trying to stop Muslims from secluding themselves from the rest of society. This is something that we are trying to fix within the Muslim community so do not think that we do not want to integrate, we are trying!
Original post by usualsuspects
The children have a right to attend education, which includes swimming classes. The state enforces people's rights, so it fines parents who interfere. This is right and by the book.
The fact that children also may not wish to attend has no relevance, because as the liberal Mill said, the state can't force citizens to do what is best for them, except for underage citizens and "underage", uncivilised, barbaric races. In this case, we have both, since not only are they dealing with minors, but also bigoted and ignorant parents (but here I'm being purposely provocative, I don't share ideas that refer to "races", Mill was a great man of his times, in the same way as remarkable Latin authors agreed on slavery).
The fact that children also may not wish to attend has no relevance, because as the liberal Mill said, the state can't force citizens to do what is best for them, except for underage citizens and "underage", uncivilised, barbaric races. In this case, we have both, since not only are they dealing with minors, but also bigoted and ignorant parents (but here I'm being purposely provocative, I don't share ideas that refer to "races", Mill was a great man of his times, in the same way as remarkable Latin authors agreed on slavery).
You have a right to remain silent, does this mean you must remain silent?
Original post by Len Goodman
Good. If they don't like it they can go back home. The Western world should have zero tolerance for barbaric Islamic practices.
Kass there's nothing barbaric about not swimming with boys.
Muslims are just not integrating, I honestly dont know why theyre making such a big issue and becoming an inconvenience to society. Yes, theyre entitled to freedom of religion but this doesnt constitute to freedom of religion.
Original post by TheMaskedLady
Whats all this garbage about muslim's asking for special privileges? Just because what they're asking for is religion related everyone's suddenly arguing so much. Where as if the case was about, say a girl who didnt want to swim because she didnt want to show the scars on her body to anyone, everyone would be on the girls side. If you can respect her reasons why cant you respect a muslim's reason for wanting segregation? Their religion isnt interfering with your life so why y'all hating? Or if the girls didnt want to swim with the boys just because they werent 'comfortable with the other gender' I'm sure no one would have made such a hubbub over it but once religion comes into the picture... *explosion*
I wish I could rep you more. I couldn't agree more, and not just any religion, as soon as islam is mentioned it doesn't matter what is being argued everyone will be against islam no matter how stupid it sounds
Original post by nutz99
Seriously, with the number of perverts around nowadays that will never be an option.
I think you are right, even if there were none people would fear that there were.
The UK attitude to nudity is not the same as the German one. Being nude in a German sauna is normal and no issue, and most have a swimming pool attached.
Original post by thatswrong.
Kass there's nothing barbaric about not swimming with boys.
THere is, they don't want little boys to see their daughters skin, yet it's acceptable for girls to see them and for them to see boys. Expecting segregation on these basis is not proper of civilised contemporary people.
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