Above all, the Islamist extremists want to divide us and turn us against each other

Well said.. Liberals need to get their head checked.

Just to check, you're praising Catholic for attributing statements to me that I didn't make and then condemning 'liberals' for them? Fair summary?

Genuine criticism of Islam and bigotry are two very different things. When I see posts or threads on here that state that 'Islam is perfect' or 'Islam preaches peace' then you are bound to get people who will have an issue with it as any well-read individual on faith knows that this is false.

Is that right? In fact, most of the passages that purportedly proclaim violence are interpretable by context and in different ways

like all scripture-based religions, Islam is widely interpreted and generations of scholars built traditions of interpretation about what things like 'Jihad' meant and when it was appropriate. Just like people interpret the Bible in different ways and developed teaching on it over the centuries.

My experience with forum posters who claim they know the Quran and they know it advocates violence is that often they don't know squat.

Ah, yes. Why am I not surprised you would be referring to this?



I will not have a religious debate with you here about the differences between Islam and Christianity as there is a specific sub-forum for this. Suffice it to say that nothing justifies the killing of another human being, especially if it's ordained in a book.



And here I was thinking Muslims and apologists didn't like generalisations? But I guess the rules change when applied to people who don't agree with their views.

The fact that you use the word 'apologist' shows pretty clearly where you're coming from - I doubt that scholarly debates about the true meanings of scriptural verses are going to mean a lot to you.

Nor did I say that the killings are remotely justified, nor are they. That's you falsely imputing vile motives to me because you assume, wrongly, that I'm trying to defend something here.

The question is - to what extent do most current followers of the religion support the mass murder of non-believers. The answer is that most don't.

Western society has developed an "Us vs. Them" mentality which divides Muslims from the rest of society and makes it easier for attacks on Muslims, a prime example being the way the media presents Islam, so that it is associated with terrorism, so that Muslims are attacked for their religion.


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Is that right? In fact, most of the passages that purportedly proclaim violence are interpretable by context and in different ways - like all scripture-based religions, Islam is widely interpreted and generations of scholars built traditions of interpretation about what things like 'Jihad' meant and when it was appropriate. Just like people interpret the Bible in different ways and developed teaching on it over the centuries.

My experience with forum posters who claim they know the Quran and they know it advocates violence is that often they don't know squat.

Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.

Above all, they want to create a climate of fear and hatred here in Europe, they want Muslims living here to be attacked and they want that to push young European Muslims into their hands.

They want us to act blindly, to react on the basis of hate and anger and to lash out. They want to bring about a collapse of our society into violence and rage.

The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?

the scriptures both demand and predict victory in battle. It is not because of any rational military analysis. The plan you have proposed is much more like something a Bush or a Rumsfeld could come up with.

This is important because if we were to clearly defeat them in battle it would undermine their legitimacy in the same way.

You'd have thought the Jihadis would have seen the error of this after they got annihilated at Tours and at Vienna.....