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Above all, the Islamist extremists want to divide us and turn us against each other watch

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    (Original post by Ashtar)
    Well said.. Liberals need to get their head checked.
    Just to check, you're praising Catholic for attributing statements to me that I didn't make and then condemning 'liberals' for them? Fair summary?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Just to check, you're praising Catholic for attributing statements to me that I didn't make and then condemning 'liberals' for them? Fair summary?
    They deleted the post already, why even bother discussing
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    The moderate Muslim (just a Muslim) who wants to live and let live. ISIS are extreme so would gladly rid themselves of these weak people.

    So many Muslims have been murdered yet the media black out has totally forgotten this choosing only to focus on Paris.

    I'm British white with a beautiful best of both grandson. We are a very multicultural family through our generations.

    I will not allow my next generation of children to be tarred by all this hatered. My arms are open as is my heart & mind. I just wish others would see this x
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    Genuine criticism of Islam and bigotry are two very different things. When I see posts or threads on here that state that 'Islam is perfect' or 'Islam preaches peace' then you are bound to get people who will have an issue with it as any well-read individual on faith knows that this is false.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Genuine criticism of Islam and bigotry are two very different things. When I see posts or threads on here that state that 'Islam is perfect' or 'Islam preaches peace' then you are bound to get people who will have an issue with it as any well-read individual on faith knows that this is false.
    Is that right? In fact, most of the passages that purportedly proclaim violence are interpretable by context and in different ways - like all scripture-based religions, Islam is widely interpreted and generations of scholars built traditions of interpretation about what things like 'Jihad' meant and when it was appropriate. Just like people interpret the Bible in different ways and developed teaching on it over the centuries.

    My experience with forum posters who claim they know the Quran and they know it advocates violence is that often they don't know squat.
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    Really moving statement today putting the focus on how we should be acting around each other following these attacks and the attempt by extremists to divide and fracture our society with extreme violent acts.

    https://www.facebook.com/JamesAshley...nf&pnref=story
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Is that right? In fact, most of the passages that purportedly proclaim violence are interpretable by context and in different ways
    Ah, yes. Why am I not surprised you would be referring to this?

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    like all scripture-based religions, Islam is widely interpreted and generations of scholars built traditions of interpretation about what things like 'Jihad' meant and when it was appropriate. Just like people interpret the Bible in different ways and developed teaching on it over the centuries.
    I will not have a religious debate with you here about the differences between Islam and Christianity as there is a specific sub-forum for this. Suffice it to say that nothing justifies the killing of another human being, especially if it's ordained in a book.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    My experience with forum posters who claim they know the Quran and they know it advocates violence is that often they don't know squat.
    And here I was thinking Muslims and apologists didn't like generalisations? But I guess the rules change when applied to people who don't agree with their views.
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    I have an Islamic friend who agrees with the bombings in france which is weird as he is homosexual??
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Ah, yes. Why am I not surprised you would be referring to this?



    I will not have a religious debate with you here about the differences between Islam and Christianity as there is a specific sub-forum for this. Suffice it to say that nothing justifies the killing of another human being, especially if it's ordained in a book.



    And here I was thinking Muslims and apologists didn't like generalisations? But I guess the rules change when applied to people who don't agree with their views.
    The fact that you use the word 'apologist' shows pretty clearly where you're coming from - I doubt that scholarly debates about the true meanings of scriptural verses are going to mean a lot to you. :rolleyes:

    Nor did I say that the killings are remotely justified, nor are they. That's you falsely imputing vile motives to me because you assume, wrongly, that I'm trying to defend something here.

    Of course these religions have all kinds of violent nuttiness in them, not least the OT on which both Islam and Christianity heavily draw.
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    The question is - to what extent do most current followers of the religion support the mass murder of non-believers. The answer is that most don't.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The fact that you use the word 'apologist' shows pretty clearly where you're coming from - I doubt that scholarly debates about the true meanings of scriptural verses are going to mean a lot to you. :rolleyes:
    Amusing that you use the supposed high ground of scholarly debate and yet are assuming my point of views. How about going with fact rather than speculation?

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Nor did I say that the killings are remotely justified, nor are they. That's you falsely imputing vile motives to me because you assume, wrongly, that I'm trying to defend something here.
    I was simply giving you an example. Nothing less and nothing more.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The question is - to what extent do most current followers of the religion support the mass murder of non-believers. The answer is that most don't.
    And you would know this how? I'm genuinely curious about this. If you're able for one second to come off your moral high ground and explain it would actually be constructive to this discussion.
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    (Original post by tomriddle)
    Western society has developed an "Us vs. Them" mentality which divides Muslims from the rest of society and makes it easier for attacks on Muslims, a prime example being the way the media presents Islam, so that it is associated with terrorism, so that Muslims are attacked for their religion.


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    Correct...
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Is that right? In fact, most of the passages that purportedly proclaim violence are interpretable by context and in different ways - like all scripture-based religions, Islam is widely interpreted and generations of scholars built traditions of interpretation about what things like 'Jihad' meant and when it was appropriate. Just like people interpret the Bible in different ways and developed teaching on it over the centuries.

    My experience with forum posters who claim they know the Quran and they know it advocates violence is that often they don't know squat.
    And they're being interpreted in violent ways by huge numbers of Muslims:
    Spoiler:
    Show

    Pew Research (2013):
    • Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda.
    • Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban.
    • 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
    http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/...remist-groups/[1]Wenzel Strategies (2012):
    • 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
    • 45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
    • 12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
    • 43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims.
    • 32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land.
    http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/201...-of-expression[2]ICM Poll:
    • 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
    • 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html[3]Pew Research (2010):
    • 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    • 70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    • 42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    • 82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers
    • 56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/[4]WZB Berlin Social Science Center:
    • 65%% of Muslims in Europe say Sharia is more important than the law of the country they live in.
    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/40...fundamentalism[5]Pew Global (2006)
    • 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
    • 43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
    • 38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
    • 15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
    http://cnsnews.com/node/53865[6]World Public Opinion (2009)
    • 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    • 32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    • 41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
    • 38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
    • 62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
    • 42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Feb09_rpt.pdf[7]NOP Research:
    • 62% percent of British Muslims say freedom of speech shouldn't be protected
    • 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
    • 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06[8]People Press Surveys
    • 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
    http://www.people-press.org/2004/03/...fter-iraq-war/[9]Belgian HLN
    • 16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
    http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/...aardbaar.dhtml[10]ICM Poll:
    • 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
    http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews...ms%20Nov04.asp[11]Pew Research (2007):
    • 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    • 35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    • 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    • 22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    • 29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
    pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60Al-Jazeera (2006):
    • 49.9% of Muslims polled support Osama bin Laden
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden[12]Populus Poll (2006):
    • 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
    • 37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
    http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf[13]http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...itish-islamist[14]GfK NOP:
    • 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state
    http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Sharia...eLawForAll.pdf[15]NOP Research:
    • 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam;
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06[16]MacDonald Laurier Institute:
    • 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory)
    • 35% of Canadian Muslims would not repudiate al-Qaeda
    http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01...riah-in-canada[17]http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much-...ion-in-canada/[18]al-Arabiya:
    • 36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure
    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/20...10/166274.html[19]Gallup:
    • 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially"
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    They want to kill us and they are, and the rise of Islamic jihad is growing globally. That has been obvious for YEARS now. What is disturbing is that so many people still cannot see what is happening. They want to divide us yes. They want there to be only Islam and want all infidels killed or subjugated. There is a terrible blindness and apathy of people and a reluctance to speak out plainly and denounce the evil of all Islamist factions. We are being killed and under serious threat by murdering crazies. Time we started growing up and prepared for massive bloody fight. Freedom is always worth fighting for. You don't at your peril. People should stop thinking of their personal safety. We have a moral duty to fight an evil which is disrupting our world. That is the only way to crush such cruel bullying scum. You can't debate with an indoctrinated fanatic. Enough of your politically correct nonsense. Those days over. Muslims need to look at Islam and see that is not a healthy prescription for moral intelligence and a loving society. One has to be prepared to fight evil and to preserve one's Western values and beliefs. Grow some balls you cowards who hide behind your tired political excuses and PR clichés. Instead of putting your energy into claiming that all we need to do is NOTHING, do something practical and help all those persecuted victims of Islam everywhere. e.g. Remember the Yazidi women and children who are still enslaved, or how about supporting the women and men soldiers of the YPJ and YPG who are bravely putting their lives on the line to kill IS raping, baby killing, murdering, animals. 'Allahu Akbar' does not mean 'God is Great', like the Sky News lady has been saying repeatedly today. It means 'Allah is the Greatest God'. That in itself should indicate something. I spit on the ugliness of those who care more for politically correct behaviours than helping to confront evil Islamofascism.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Bit sad this morning to see anti-Muslim threads popping up already.

    Whilst it's predictable that people will want to lash out (and we are all angry), we should pause a moment to consider what it is that the extremists behind these actions really want.

    Above all, they want to create a climate of fear and hatred here in Europe, they want Muslims living here to be attacked and they want that to push young European Muslims into their hands.

    They want us to act blindly, to react on the basis of hate and anger and to lash out. They want to bring about a collapse of our society into violence and rage.

    The question for France is the same as the question for us - will we buy into what they want, or will we continue to stand for a society of law, enlightenment and civilised values?
    We can not pretend Islsm is not a contributing factor. The terrorists were and are Muslim, until we address the extremist ideological views in their holy scripture I will disagree with everything you said. Your common argument is losing its hold all across Europe
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    the scriptures both demand and predict victory in battle. It is not because of any rational military analysis. The plan you have proposed is much more like something a Bush or a Rumsfeld could come up with.

    This is important because if we were to clearly defeat them in battle it would undermine their legitimacy in the same way.
    You'd have thought the Jihadis would have seen the error of this after they got annihilated at Tours and at Vienna.....
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    You'd have thought the Jihadis would have seen the error of this after they got annihilated at Tours and at Vienna.....
    Both defeats that only stopped their advances with them still in possession of much territory they didn't possess previously. The real nadir of their fortunes was the peace after WWI at which time there were only two genuinely independent Islamic countries in the world, Iran and Saudi Arabia. That is still (just) in living memory and since then Islam's rivals have suffered a long series of massive reverses. Of course these have been mostly driven by internal Western ideological disputes rather than Islamic military successes, but that is probably not obvious to them.
 
 
 
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