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Isis orders all women and girls in Mosul to undergo FGM, says UN Watch

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    (Original post by Chindits)
    It seems the same 'people' in here defending ISIS, are also in the Israel/Pal thread defending Hamas.

    No surprise, they're both cut from the same cloth.
    Not a single person in this thread has defended ISIS.

    In fact on TSR there is only one Muslim full stop who defends them, and he is viewed very badly by the rest of the I-SOC.
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    (Original post by James222)
    You have to be a REAL nutcase to invite Al Qaeda into your town just because you dont like the Politician ruling your country.
    This makes no sense, what's it even in relation to?
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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    This makes no sense, what's it even in relation to?
    ISIS...its pretty widely known many sunni tribes tried to use Al Qaeda as a bargaining chip with the Federal Govt
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    This is a fake story.
    http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/...ation-in-iraq/
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    (Original post by James222)
    ISIS...its pretty widely known many sunni tribes tried to use Al Qaeda as a bargaining chip with the Federal Govt
    ISIS aren't related to AQ , AQ have openly derided ISIS and claimed it to be unislamic
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    It seems the same 'people' in here defending ISIS, are also in the Israel/Pal thread defending Hamas.

    No surprise, they're both cut from the same cloth.
    no one defends ISIS. ISIS have no legitimate grievances and are totalitarian
    Hamas have some legitimate grievances and dont go around shooting palestinians for disagreeing with them.
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    (Original post by Three Mile Sprint)
    Not a single person in this thread has defended ISIS.

    In fact on TSR there is only one Muslim full stop who defends them, and he is viewed very badly by the rest of the I-SOC.
    I can see one person in particular seems to be querying if ISIS are as bad as reported.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I can see one person in particular seems to be querying if ISIS are as bad as reported.
    Querying the veracity of sources does not equate to supporting the orginization in question.

    Modern history is littered with invented/exaggerated stories concerning organizations that are evil/enemies.
    I remember back in 2009 a story broke that Al-Qaueda were forcing new born babies to wear Niqabs/Burqahs, the internet raged.

    It was nonsense..utter nonsense, a complete lie that spread like wildfire even amongst mainstream news sources.
    But because the story concerned an orginization already widely held to be evil no one battered an eyelid and spread it without even checking sources.

    Now in this case I am not doubting ISIS has ordered this event, however I can fully understand why some people would at least be sceptical of initial reports(it is after all a breaking story at the moment)
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So do you have the "fatwa" or not?
    Maybe it's like God.
    Just because no one has seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Or do you need physical proof for everything?
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    (Original post by Edison'sWords)
    May I also kindly guide you towards this website: http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fgm/fgm-islam
    It explains and details how and why what you've said simply isn't true. It also explains how the existing Hadith supporting FGM have been proven to be inauthentic.
    A paper written by the Islamic Cultural Centre and the London Mosque is not objective and unbiased. In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies "They would say that, wouldn't they".

    Verifiable facts are a better way of getting to the heart of the issue. Here are a few.
    FGM did not exist in Indonesia and Malaysia before the arrival of Islam.
    About 90% of Indonesian girls are cut.
    Over 80% of Malaysian women claim religious obligation as the primary reason for practicing FGM.
    The 86th conference of Malaysia’s Fatwa Committee National Council of Islamic Religious Affairs held in April 2009 announced that female circumcision is part of Islamic teachings and it should be observed by Muslims.

    Please explain how the above shows that FGM has nothing to do with Islam.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    A paper written by the Islamic Cultural Centre and the London Mosque is not objective and unbiased. In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies "They would say that, wouldn't they".

    Verifiable facts are a better way of getting to the heart of the issue. Here are a few.
    FGM did not exist in Indonesia and Malaysia before the arrival of Islam.
    About 90% of Indonesian girls are cut.
    Over 80% of Malaysian women claim religious obligation as the primary reason for practicing FGM.
    The 86th conference of Malaysia’s Fatwa Committee National Council of Islamic Religious Affairs held in April 2009 announced that female circumcision is part of Islamic teachings and it should be observed by Muslims.

    Please explain how the above shows that FGM has nothing to do with Islam.
    What are your sources for the information you have given? How can anyone prove that FGM didn't exist in civilisations before the arrival of Islam? Do the records account for girls who don't speak up and have the procedure performed in their back gardens (before the arrival of Islam)? No. Perhaps it became more common but that doesn't mean it was down to Islam. Those women who claim religious obligation was their main reason were told by their mothers, grandmothers etc that it was religious obligation- no little girl would want this unless she was made to feel guilty/as though she was sinning if she didn't. The people who tell these girls they need to do this in the name of Islam use it as an excuse. It is cultural and perhaps families feel shame/embarrassment if they don't do it for fear of social rejection and so using the term 'religious obligation' is the only way they can force girls to do it and feel better about forcing them to do so. I don't know where you got the evidence for the last point you made but the London Central Mosque looked at all evidence available, all the Hadiths etc that support the use of FGM and then said that Islam and FGM have no link.

    And on the point of them being subjective and biased, what makes you think that? Why would you think 'they would say that, wouldn't they?'. What benefit would they gain from twisting and manipulating facts. They aim to inform and dispel myths- such as those that you believe in.

    These 'facts' you have presented me with cannot be proven to be as evidential to your argument as you may think. The fact that 90% of girls are cut doesn't say anything about religion but it says a lot about culture. As I said before, the 80% of women claiming religious obligation led the way would say that because that's what they've been made to believe. Most girls are cut when they have yet to reach puberty; these girls are not fluent in Islamic teachings and so the only way they could think it was 'religious obligation' would be if someone they knew told them it was.



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    I think people having the argument about whether FGM is "a part" of Islam are getting wires crossed. From what I gather (I don't follow a religion, I'm actually pretty anti-religion...but anyway) FGM is not mentioned in Islam, it's not a requirement for muslim women nor is it encouraged. There are however some Islamic groups who impose it, given it's such a gruesome and brutal act, people remember and it's the things they remember that they associate. Same way ignorant people just label all muslims terrorists, mud sticks and it's extreme fundamentalist minorities who stir it up.

    A lot of countries where FGM is highly prevalent do seem to be largely muslim countries, this could be coincidence as many also appear to be in underdeveloped countries in Africa. In such countries, many practices are common which are not affiliated with any particular mainstream religion, there are regions for example where people are still executed for witchcraft at the word of village chiefs. I saw an article last year I think about a goat being slaughtered because a village witchdoctor believed a man guilty of murder had turned himself into a goat to escape punishment. I imagine that most goat deaths attributed to witchcraft and wizzardry are also in countries where Islam is popular but you sure as **** can't pin that on Islam.

    Correlation is not causation.


    I find this whole did they, didnt they? thing about ISIS completely pointless. They are a brutal, menacing organisation who are pretty open about their activities and goals. Activities and goals that every nation on earth can almost unanimously agree fall under "Terrorism".

    If Al qaeda want nothing to do with you because of your actions, you're bad, bad people.
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    Turns out it's a lie


    Close thread op

    Or change the title

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    (Original post by Amphiprion)
    I think people having the argument about whether FGM is "a part" of Islam are getting wires crossed. From what I gather (I don't follow a religion, I'm actually pretty anti-religion...but anyway) FGM is not mentioned in Islam, it's not a requirement for muslim women nor is it encouraged. There are however some Islamic groups who impose it, given it's such a gruesome and brutal act, people remember and it's the things they remember that they associate. Same way ignorant people just label all muslims terrorists, mud sticks and it's extreme fundamentalist minorities who stir it up.

    A lot of countries where FGM is highly prevalent do seem to be largely muslim countries, this could be coincidence as many also appear to be in underdeveloped countries in Africa. In such countries, many practices are common which are not affiliated with any particular mainstream religion, there are regions for example where people are still executed for witchcraft at the word of village chiefs. I saw an article last year I think about a goat being slaughtered because a village witchdoctor believed a man guilty of murder had turned himself into a goat to escape punishment. I imagine that most goat deaths attributed to witchcraft and wizzardry are also in countries where Islam is popular but you sure as **** can't pin that on Islam.

    Correlation is not causation.


    I find this whole did they, didnt they? thing about ISIS completely pointless. They are a brutal, menacing organisation who are pretty open about their activities and goals. Activities and goals that every nation on earth can almost unanimously agree fall under "Terrorism".

    If Al qaeda want nothing to do with you because of your actions, you're bad, bad people.
    Couldn't agree with you more. FGM is not a part of Islam and although it's prevalent in some Islamic countries, it has no religious attachments. It is cultural not religious and correlation does not mean causation- well said.


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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I'm just wondering where the actual "fatwa" is because there is no link to any kind of "fatwa" in any one of the news link.

    Could you provide evidence of this "fatwa" please?
    I have given you the news report

    Why don't you give ISIS a call and ask them if it's wrong:rolleyes:
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Maybe it's like God.
    Just because no one has seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Or do you need physical proof for everything?
    Okay. Looks like you don't have anything.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    I have given you the news report

    Why don't you give ISIS a call and ask them if it's wrong:rolleyes:
    The news report contains no links to any Fatwa of any sort. It was plain heresay.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Ah right, it's just the same user it pulling the same nonsense with regards to defending Hamas.

    Must be a coincidence.

    My mistake mate.
    If you are talking about me, would you be so kind as to quote me so I have an opportunity to respond?
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    (Original post by Edison'sWords)
    What are your sources for the information you have given?
    The Islamic Monthly
    Prof CG Smith, Female Circumcision in Southeast Asia since the Coming of Islam
    Feillard & Morcoes (1998), Female Circumcision in Indonesia
    Hefner (1985), Hindu Javanese: Tengger Tradition and Islam
    Ali (2006), Sexual Ethics And Islam
    Population Council (2003), Female Circumcision in Indonesia
    to name but a few.


    How can anyone prove that FGM didn't exist in civilisations before the arrival of Islam?
    Because 1. there are no records or traditions of it, and 2. it was forbidden under Hunduism and Buddhism, the two religions in the area before Islam arrived. Also, the small pockets of pre-Islamic religions do not practice it and their priests and medicine men do not take part in ceremonies where the cultures mix.

    Those women who claim religious obligation was their main reason were told by their mothers, grandmothers etc that it was religious obligation- no little girl would want this unless she was made to feel guilty/as though she was sinning if she didn't.
    You misunderstand. The victims do not volunteer for the procedure or attempt to rationalise it. It is the the older women who carry it out or who have had it done in the past.

    The people who tell these girls they need to do this in the name of Islam use it as an excuse.
    Of course they do. There is no need to do it at all so any justification is an excuse. The fact remains that the excuse used is that it is required under Islam. Whether they are right or not is irrelevant. It is the reason used for doing it. This is what you seem to fail to be able to grasp.
    Islam is used as the justification for FGM in Indonesia & Malaysia.

    It is cultural and perhaps families feel shame/embarrassment if they don't do it for fear of social rejection and so using the term 'religious obligation' is the only way they can force girls to do it and feel better about forcing them to do so.
    It is clearly and demonstrably religious. You are merely trying to rationalise your denial.

    I don't know where you got the evidence for the last point you made but the London Central Mosque looked at all evidence available, all the Hadiths etc that support the use of FGM and then said that Islam and FGM have no link.

    And on the point of them being subjective and biased, what makes you think that? Why would you think 'they would say that, wouldn't they?'. What benefit would they gain from twisting and manipulating facts. They aim to inform and dispel myths- such as those that you believe in.
    It is quite simply a public relations exercise to counter popular condemnation of a practice linked with Islam. It is neither objective nor academically stringent.
    For example, it states "It is forbidden to make changes in God's creation unless there is a compelling reason i.e. for medical reasons." Why, then, is male circumcision required under Islam, even though there rarely compelling medical reasons for doing it?

    These 'facts' you have presented me with cannot be proven to be as evidential to your argument as you may think.
    Yes they can. Read the papers.

    The fact that 90% of girls are cut doesn't say anything about religion but it says a lot about culture.
    You are in denial of the facts.

    As I said before, the 80% of women claiming religious obligation led the way would say that because that's what they've been made to believe.
    Yes. By their religious traditions. How do you think religion works?

    Most girls are cut when they have yet to reach puberty; these girls are not fluent in Islamic teachings and so the only way they could think it was 'religious obligation' would be if someone they knew told them it was.
    Correct. Their parents, Imams, cutters, etc.
    You seem to be under the impression that religious tradition is not a part of religion!
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Okay. Looks like you don't have anything.
    I have a deep, personal conviction that it exists.
 
 
 
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