Original post by Rat_BagExactly the same applies to the Bible
Exactly the same applies to the Bible
Good. Christians used to claim the perfect inerrancy of the Bible. Nowadays this is rare, since the process of the Enlightenment has cast doubt on this. The same can happen with the Qur'an.
It used to be claimed that the Bible all came from one source, God. Now it isn't. The Qur'an is also a collection of stories was alleged to have been been revealed over a period of time. More and more Muslim appreciate the variable context each part of the Qur'an relates so, so the whole "perfect and relevant for all times" is slipping away from the ummah. Whilst it is rare that Muslims will directly concede the Qur'an is not all relevant to all people at all times, many many say so indirectly. Over time this may lead to a process dilution. During the Enlightenment, liberal minded Christians didn't start saying the Bible wasn't from God and wasn't without error, but started questioning its legitimacy indirectly. It would have been a gradual, generational process.
I think because you are a Christian, and because of the way in which you view things, you can't see the big picture here and appreciate the similarities
But it used to be claimed to be so. Now it isn't. Something happened within Christians and Christendom that caused it to stop, and in spite of all your unfounded objections, could very much happen to Islam.
Not Christian thought. Christian thought actively sought to stop this, just as Islamic thought tries to do.
A thought inconceivable in Middle Ages Christendom
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So you do accept it is possible? Finally"
Erm, even with the Hadith and Tafsir, it's message is not clear. Just as the Bible's message is not clear. That's why you find a huge breadth of theology and sects within both Christianity and Islam.
Er, no. Christian doctrine despised science and independent thought. Early Christian scientists made discovering in spite of their religion. Indeed Christian institutions thwarted scientific progression, and it was only really during the Renaissance and Enlightenment that science took off in a big way in Christendom. Once the nuisance Christian priests and their wretched religion was out of the way, science could progress. Your fantasy of Christianity's nurture of science is exactly the same to the letter as Muslims' belief about the Golden Age of science in the Islamic Empire being about Islam; it wasn't, all of it occurred in spite of Islam, not because of it.
Anyway, you're scraping into the delusions of Christian apologia
Yes, exactly the same was true of science from Christendom. Increased resources from trade and later empire lead to the ability and means of scientific study,
Rubbish! The Church was an obstacle to science, peddling superstition and all sorts of other nonsensical explanations for the world. It eventually stopped because of the crumbling of Christianity in the face of the Enlightenment.
It died out in the Muslim world because the fundamentalism of Islam eventually caught up with it, as well as general stagnation of the Islamic Empire (with the pursuit of science de prioritised and viewed as a luxury that could not be afforded).
Science flourished and Europe during and after the recession of Christianity from its stranglehold on institutions and people's minds, as well as it's Enlightenment such that core beliefs were removed.
I hope you reallise that the Enlightenment was not a Christian inspired event, but something that was a response against Christianity and eventually neutered and removed fundamental Christianity from the centres of power. From this arose essentially a new religion, which is the Christianity of established churches in Western Europe, the Americas, and pretty much everywhere bar the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
Good, so it might. It already is starting to go through the process of developing theologies which would have been previously inconceivable, and which are heretical by orthodox Islam's standards
That may be down to culture, since Christian churches of the Middle East do things very differently.
There isn't anywhere in the Bible that says "the pre-Jesus books should not be followed". That's just something that more modern Christian theologians have done. And it shows by way of non Anglican, non Catholic Christianity in the US so much more fixated on the OT and the 10 commandments compared to Europe. This is because the process of "de-Old Testementising" Christianity occurred from the late 17th century, after which many Europeans had started settling in the Americas, taking with them their less reformed Christianity.
Erm, you have to ignore half the Bible in Christianity.
Maybe select Hadith will survive. Just as the 10 Commandments survives from the OT, particularly in the US ad US influenced churches worldwide.
Exactly. It hasn't been, but used to be. Same may happen to Islam.
Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity, with much of the Islamic world pretty backward even a century ago.
It's obvious you do. You find it difficult to conceive things that are radically different.
You obviously don't and can't
Just like Islam today. There are Muslims doubting Islamic doctrine
Because of your lack of imagination.
It's actually likely to be in the tens thousands if you strip out offences (such as rape and murder) which warrant the death penalty in non-Islamic jurisdictions (such as the US). And I wouldn't include things related to honour, since this happens in so many non-Islamic jurisdictions. When you just include issues of blasphemy and heresy (which is what we are talking about in the context of Christian killings in the Middle Ages), it's not going to be as much as you think.
The tens/hundreds of thousands number for the Inquisition is about persecution, not necessarily killing.
Yes I know, it's why it's not relevant to this discussion of killing people for heresy and blasphemy
At the time, the OT was very much integral to Christianity. Hence the awful things happening.
But Christian law was once ingrained in the minds of Christians. It stopped. This repetitive point I am making is what this whole discussion is about.
And maybe the minority of liberal Muslims who are currently viewed as heretics will go onto succeed.
Only because they are brainwashed and perform mental gymnastics to keep it consistent. Just as Christians were in the Middle Ages.
That is one school of thought in Islam. Not the only one.
Nor did he says it was to be discarded.
Yep. And there were times when he did loving and peaceful stuff. So the cherry picking for Muslims is as easy as it is for Christians.
I doubt that.
Untrue. There are Sahih Hadiths that depict and loving gentle Mohammad. Modern Muslims love these ones. Hence all the contradictions.
There was no command.
That's no true at all, there is a huge amount of internal debate within the ummah. And the pressures to tone it down are external you are right, as were the pressures to tone down Christianity in the Middle Ages during the Enlightenment.
There are sufficient similarities that they trajectories could end up the same.
I dislike Islam more than I dislike Christianity. I think that because you feel insecure in your weak and wishy washy Christianity, that you see muscular Islam as practiced by orthodox Muslims, and think it is all like that. It isn't
The Bible clearly supported the Inquisition, persecution of heresy, slavery
In the end, for the most part, these places were not tolerant or liberal.
The Shah was overthrown by communists and liberals. In the chaos Islamists took over (just as was predicted would happen during the Arab Spring). If you read up about Iranian history, you will see that the opposition to the Shah was because he was corrupt and ineffective, such that even secularists opposed him. The bulk of the opposition wasn't to his secularism, though it did rally the Islamist minority
Er no. LRA in Uganda was not in response to Islamism. The explosion of intolerant evangelical Christianity is not in response to Islamism (indeed, they are succeeding in converting Muslims to it).
None of what you wrote is relevant to the reality.
Maybe peaceful like Mohammad was during the Mecca years......pragmatism
It doesn't say to discard the OT teachings.
It was improved by the Enlightenment, people who were not motivated by Christian doctrine. The reformation just opened the doors to questioning, which centuries later lead to the Enlightenment.
Thing is, the original reformers actually made things worse.
And in Christianity, the messiah has come and died for our sins. That puts a full stop on a lot of creative theology, just like a final prophet does for Islam.
Which is why some Muslims resort to historical context as a way of sanitising their scripture. Neither context nor abrogation are theologically sound ways of dealing with a book that is relevant for all people for all times. But Muslim theologians have created these innovations as a means of interpretation
The details you bring forward just aren't relevant.
The same key message is the same. This world is about salvation through faith. No faith= eternal torture. That's the essence of both religions, and their core teaching. And it's disgusting
And remember, Christianity used to be about spreading the message through the sword. But then it stopped.
Yes, but Muslims will refer to the "poor struggling" years when it's suited. They had a poor period and then a powerful period. As did Christianity, albeit the time lag was somewhat longer.
Judaism, by it's scripture is by far the worst. But of course Judaism has been reformed, and part of the OT don't appear in even the hardline Haredi sects.
The details of the religions vary, but there are sufficient commonalities in their principles which means they can all take a trajectory of reform.
Only because Christians in the Middle Ages made it that way.
In the Middle Ages and before, people did think Yaweh did things literally. Just like Muslims do so now with their scripture
Yeah but it's just modern Christians which have made the Bible all allegorical. Didn't used to be like that. Just as orthodox Muslims don't view the Islamic scriptures as allegorical, though some are starting to, and many more may in the future.
All this used to be the case for Christians. Why can't you recognise this.
Anyway, save me repeating the same old same to you here is the gist of what am saying;
-Christian scripture used to be interpreted literally; today this is the minority
-Christian scripture used to be viewed as divine and without error; today this is a minority
-Christians and Christian institutions used to persecute heresy; today this does not happen
-Christians and Christian institutions used to persecute deviance; today this doesn't occur for the bulk of Christians in Europe, the Americas and Asia, though is re-emerging in sub-Saharan Africa
Notice the pattern that 'Christianity' used to do all the things that 'Islam' does now. But it stopped. And Islam could stop. You keep on saying that Islam is different, but this does not stand up to scrutiny.
-Islam has violent and oppressive verses in its scripture; so does Christianity
-Christianity has peaceful and loving verses in its scripture, so does Islam
-Christianity is sufficiently ambiguous to allow flexibility; so is Islam
Please don't come back with all sorts of Christian apologia.