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Reply 20
EskimoJo
I sort of see that as mediocre writing, not necessarily 'bad'. I see bad as mistakes, words/passages that don't add anything, overly descriptive/lack of description, if it reads like a thesaurus was used for every word (not because I don't understand big words, but sometimes it seems unnecessary or forced)...
I think when writing for children, it's difficult not to get into a he said, she said pattern, and it is sometimes necessary to add description to how something was said because a child might not understand the context even from the reaction to what was said, especially in a fast-paced children's book when attitudes and emotions change quickly. If, as in the article's example, Harry goes from furious to glum in less than a page, then a child might miss that.
I don't think that makes the books bad, but I guess if I read a book in that writing style when I wasn't aware that it was supposed to be a children's book, I'd see it as poorly written. I find chick-lit a bit like that sometimes.
Basically, I can't imagine great writing in a child's novel. I haven't read any Roald Dahl as an adult. Hmmm... I've got The Hobbit upstairs, so hopefully that'll be good. :smile:


You cannot imagine great writing in children's literature because you are prejudiced against it; the entire notion of children's literature is a contemporary abstraction. What exactly makes The Hobbit a children's book? The fact it has dragons? You do realise that literature, ignoring the last three hundred years, has been made up almost entirely of 'fantastic elements'?

Nevertheless, given your stylistic comments you have pretty much dismissed Charles Dickens and Fyodor Dostoevsky as crap writers, though I doubt you would do so openly, especially if you have read them. It is clear you need to spend more time reading, and also change the way you read.
Svenjamin


The article may be a bit vitriolic, but I agree with the basis of the arguments. There's a saying that Children's books are just stories that are too badly written to sell to an adult audience, which I think is pretty true in Harry Potter's case.


In view of the millions of Harry Potter books that have been sold to adults then I think that demolishes your argument.
Svenjamin

The article may be a bit vitriolic, but I agree with the basis of the arguments. There's a saying that Children's books are just stories that are too badly written to sell to an adult audience, which I think is pretty true in Harry Potter's case.


Another great one (which comes from book 7) is "Harry was master of the pain". Also, there was a huge list of revisions, like this one http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/pa/changes_pa.html which got rid of some of the huge slipups.
The reason why books become popular isn't merely because of the way they're written, but because of the plot elements. Harry Potter and Narnia are so well-loved because they create a whole new world which relates to what children want. And the reason why I despise Twilight is because I think it relates only to what the author wanted as a twelve year old girl.
Obadetona
They were amazing at the time :smile:

This ^ I loved them when i was younger, looking back now, i suppose they were written quite simply, but the storylines were so good :smile: and when you're a kid you don't really bother with the authors writing technique? I'm kinda tempted to read them again... :o:
Maybe it's just that some of the content is a little dated. It was written with very innocent children in mind; today's children are much more knowledgable.

Personally I think they are brilliant. I encouraged an 8 year old to read them the other day and they loved them. On the Prince Caspian DVD one of the commentators sums it up quite well. They said that the description was very minimal in the books, which allows the reader to create their own personal image of Narnia. It makes your imagination run wild. Perhaps you need to have a certain amount of willingness to use your imagination before you can find the books really enjoyable.

I disagree that children's books are badly written. One example of a fantastic author for children is Marcus Sedgwick :grin:.
Hravan
Apart from Dickens... can't read his works no matter how much I try...

:yep:
He was paid by the word and dear lord it shows
Reply 27
I do like the Narnia books, but you could always try T.H. White's The Sword in the Stone, instead. White's prose style is terrific; even his lists are funny and interesting!
Reply 28
The next movie is Voyage of The Dawn Treader? Fukken love that book! Why can't Hollywood make the films in the right order though?
Reply 29
Stuthulu
The next movie is Voyage of The Dawn Treader? Fukken love that book! Why can't Hollywood make the films in the right order though?


There are three reading orders: publication (VDT is third); chronological (VDT is fifth); and indiscriminate (pretty much no one but Lewis himself thought they could read the books in any order, though Walter Hooper suggested that as long as you read The Last Battle last you can read the others in whatever order). In summary, the notion of a 'right' order is problematic.

With regards to the films, there is the issue of the children ageing which has to be contended with. My guess, if they are going to make more, is that they will make The Silver Chair next and then The Last Battle. Given the current climate I cannot see them making The Horse and His Boy (it would be best to do it after SC though as it gives the other actors time to age), and I do not think they will bother making The Magician's Nephew as it could not be slipped into the franchise in a harmonious fashion without confusing morons.
Reply 30
Emmie3303
Maybe it's just that some of the content is a little dated. It was written with very innocent children in mind; today's children are much more knowledgable.

Personally I think they are brilliant. I encouraged an 8 year old to read them the other day and they loved them. On the Prince Caspian DVD one of the commentators sums it up quite well. They said that the description was very minimal in the books, which allows the reader to create their own personal image of Narnia. It makes your imagination run wild. Perhaps you need to have a certain amount of willingness to use your imagination before you can find the books really enjoyable. [...]


I agree with your comment about imagination, though perhaps not for the reasons you gave. But I disagree with the suggestion that the content is dated and that it was written for 'very innocent children' who were not knowledgeable. No offence. But children today are complete morons who cannot think for themselves because their education has been stripped to the bone. I have read letters children sent to Lewis in the '50s and '60s and it is clear to me that most of them have a far better grasp of the Narniad than most of the older users on this website, despite in some cases them being ten years younger. I mean for Christ's sake, the chronological reading order was suggested by a child not an adult... :rolleyes:
Reply 31
Bellissima
well my 13 year old cousin who taks out her ass half the time has taken to saying "those books are SO badly written" in her faux posh accent (this part of the family likes to think they're a cut above the rest) whenever we see the advert for the new voyage of the dawntreader movie advert... she's obviously heard her parents or teachers saying it.. or is this a general agreement that they're badly written? when i was young, i loved them.. and now I'm 16 i still do! my DAD still likes them and he's old.

ps, her favourite book is twilight and she's read it about 100 times, which i comment on when she says this. i mean, they;re way better than twilight at least?

if you've read, what do you think of the books?



Its possible they are badly written. But still best-selling, which is what counts for money from royalties.
Best written books don't always sell well. Some of the reports I see each week are well written, but they'd never sell, no-one would buy.
evantej
There are three reading orders: publication (VDT is third); chronological (VDT is fifth); and indiscriminate (pretty much no one but Lewis himself thought they could read the books in any order, though Walter Hooper suggested that as long as you read The Last Battle last you can read the others in whatever order). In summary, the notion of a 'right' order is problematic.

With regards to the films, there is the issue of the children ageing which has to be contended with. My guess, if they are going to make more, is that they will make The Silver Chair next and then The Last Battle. Given the current climate I cannot see them making The Horse and His Boy (it would be best to do it after SC though as it gives the other actors time to age), and I do not think they will bother making The Magician's Nephew as it could not be slipped into the franchise in a harmonious fashion without confusing morons.


I guess you dont know about the BBC series in the 80's amazing show but dated by todays standards anyway they skipped Magicians nephew and horse and the boy and also Last Battle so its a similar idea to yours.
Reply 33
evantej
There are three reading orders: publication (VDT is third); chronological (VDT is fifth); and indiscriminate (pretty much no one but Lewis himself thought they could read the books in any order, though Walter Hooper suggested that as long as you read The Last Battle last you can read the others in whatever order). In summary, the notion of a 'right' order is problematic.

With regards to the films, there is the issue of the children ageing which has to be contended with. My guess, if they are going to make more, is that they will make The Silver Chair next and then The Last Battle. Given the current climate I cannot see them making The Horse and His Boy (it would be best to do it after SC though as it gives the other actors time to age), and I do not think they will bother making The Magician's Nephew as it could not be slipped into the franchise in a harmonious fashion without confusing morons.


Ah, I've always used chronological order, didn't realise there were other orders because they tend to refer to previous books.
I loved the series as a child and I still love them at 21 :smile:

I cannot to pretend to be an expert in writing, however so I cannot give an educated comment whether or not they are well written.
puddlejumper
In view of the millions of Harry Potter books that have been sold to adults then I think that demolishes your argument.

Not really. Millions of adults bought Dan Brown's books, but they're still considered terribly written. Sales figures don't really reflect quality of writing. Like I said before, plenty of books sell on decent storyline with dull writing, especially children's books. They tell what needs to be told to understand the storyline, but don't do it in a particularly creative way.
Reply 36
Svenjamin
Not really. Millions of adults bought Dan Brown's books, but they're still considered terribly written. Sales figures don't really reflect quality of writing.


Damn it! Dan Brown was the author I was going to bring up in this context.

Far more people have read the Da Vinci Code in the last decade than have read, say, Crime and Punishment or Pride and Prejudice. There's no necessary correlation between quality of writing and popularity. Consider, for instance, the fact that few Booker winners were best sellers.

I find the Narnia books tiresome for the heavy-handed religious imagery, and don't think they're particularly well-written. Still, to condemn "children's" literature to the dustheap is to do away with Alice in Wonderland, The Wind in the Willows, Winnie the Pooh, and a huge range of other books which are beautifully-written and moving.
Reply 37
Twilight is very poorly written. Your thirteen year-old cousin is in no position to be a literary critic. I would personally show her the "Alex Day reads Twilight" series, so she can watch as a boy rips Twilight to pieces.

(Here is the first.)

Reply 38
You clearly haven't read The Hobbit. Reads like a six-year-old's SAT practice story.
jjarvis
I find the Narnia books tiresome for the heavy-handed religious imagery, and don't think they're particularly well-written. Still, to condemn "children's" literature to the dustheap is to do away with Alice in Wonderland, The Wind in the Willows, Winnie the Pooh, and a huge range of other books which are beautifully-written and moving.

I don't mean to condemn children's literature. I think the two main problems with children's literature is they're usually written by first time authors who wrote a book in their spare time without any experience or training in writing, and to be understandable by a child means it's very hard not to avoid simplistic writing (as someone else previously mentioned). Experienced authors who have done well in literature rarely (if ever) touch children's literature.

That's not to say it's not possible. Mark Haddon's A Curious Incident Of The Dog in Night-Time was well written, albeit because the protagonist's autism meant the simplistic matter-of-fact writing style fit his character. To have the he said she said structure is pretty much unavoidable in books for young children, but there are still books like Winnie the Pooh which have great dialogue. When it gets to stories for young adults (i.e. anything 150 pages+) I think it's time to stop patronising them.

In the context of children's literature in general, I think Narnia's a minor offender. They are aimed at children (~7-10 range) and are just about short enough to be palatable to that age range, so they don't need the finest literature. But that doesn't stop the fact that I tried to read them a few years ago and found it very hard going, even though I loved them as bedtime stories when I was 7. I'd put them in the "Would happily read to children, but difficult to enjoy as an adult" pile.

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