Why are pro-gun supporters so unwilling to look at instances where gun control works?

yankeedog1953

I agree we never grew out of the wild west mentality, ( come on, its not that long ago), but I dont agree with you the mentality is selfish.

Reply 81

Good bloke

19

Original post by yankeedog1953

I dont agree with you the mentality is selfish.

In your previous post you told us it was more important to be able to own a gun for self defence than it is to save the lives of large numbers of other people. If that isn't selfish I don't know what is.

Reply 82

yankeedog1953

14

you have a strange,(to me), idea of what is important. I also font believe your being honest though you may think you are. I dont think you can truly believe your right to defend yourself and family is worth less than the lives of someone who may or may not be killed who you dont even know..

Reply 83

Incroyable54

1

Original post by EmmaRebecca1997

Following the latest incident in Vegas, the gun issue in America has been brought up again, and all I ever see is Americans ranting about how gun control doesn't work. I don't understand why people who are pro gun are so unwilling to look at instances where gun control works? There are cases where gun control doesn't work, and gun control doesn't stop all violence, but there are countless instances of gun control working? Why are people not even prepared to look at those examples? How many times does something like this need to happen before America actually acknowledges their problem with guns? I know it's tied into money and the fact the government often has their hands tied on the issue, but I'm referring to every day citizens who won't even give it the time of day.

The Vegas shooting was a hoax.

Reply 84

yankeedog1953

14

who coordinated. the vegas hoax and for what reason?

Reply 85

yankeedog1953

14

Ive quoted FBI stats here so often in the last few years and read posts afterward that showed few bothered to even read them that now i say if your that disturbed by gun violence over here than look them up yourself

Reply 86

Underscore__

21

Original post by Good bloke

In your previous post you told us it was more important to be able to own a gun for self defence than it is to save the lives of large numbers of other people. If that isn't selfish I don't know what is.

Whether it’s selfish or not it’s probably honest. I would imagine if you gave the average person a choice of watching their spouse/child get killed or have 100 random people die they’d pick the latter.

Reply 87

999tigger

19

Original post by Underscore__

Whether it’s selfish or not it’s probably honest. I would imagine if you gave the average person a choice of watching their spouse/child get killed or have 100 random people die they’d pick the latter.

Except if you give them the chance to live in a society where fund are controlled and the gun murder rate is many times lower, then that would make more sense than having your own gun.

Reply 88

Underscore__

21

Original post by 999tigger

Except if you give them the chance to live in a society where fund are controlled and the gun murder rate is many times lower, then that would make more sense than having your own gun.

Well perhaps but the problem with that I’m yet to see any reason to think that the murder rate would be ‘many times lower’. The overwhelming majority of gun murders in the USA are gang related (people I suspect don’t legally posses guns and wouldn’t hand over their guns if they were suddenly banned) and, according to at least one study, over 80% of gun crime is committed with illegally possessed firearms.

Reply 89

999tigger

19

Original post by Underscore__

Well perhaps but the problem with that I’m yet to see any reason to think that the murder rate would be ‘many times lower’. The overwhelming majority of gun murders in the USA are gang related (people I suspect don’t legally posses guns and wouldn’t hand over their guns if they were suddenly banned) and, according to at least one study, over 80% of gun crime is committed with illegally possessed firearms.

Not worth debating if they want guns its their country. They cant be confused as to why their murder rates are so high.

Reply 90

Good bloke

19

Original post by Underscore__

Whether it’s selfish or not it’s probably honest. I would imagine if you gave the average person a choice of watching their spouse/child get killed or have 100 random people die they’d pick the latter.

I agree. I was merely pointing out the irony of the claim not to be selfish.

Reply 91

Underscore__

21

Original post by 999tigger

Not worth debating if they want guns its their country. They cant be confused as to why their murder rates are so high.

1. Who says anyone is confused
2. It’s a complete fallacy that the murder rate in the US is relatively high because of legal gun ownership, the stats don’t back it up at all

Reply 92

Drewski

19

Original post by yankeedog1953

I agree we never grew out of the wild west mentality, ( come on, its not that long ago), but I dont agree with you the mentality is selfish.

It is literally the dictionary definition of selfish.

I know you lot like to abuse our language, but you can't just make stuff up.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 93

CarlStudent

5

I am not American, I am Swedish, but I think people in other countries don’t understand American cultural attitudes. Americans see their country as exceptional and are focused on individual freedom rather than collectivism, and don’t want to look to other countries for inspiration. The gun laws are because of their war for independence and were there to ensure that Americans can protect their individual freedom and can be responsible for their own security. They don’t believe that any constitutional rights should be changed as they feel their rights come from God than people, which is different from Europeans. And they don’t feel that the gun violence is worth taking away these rights for. After all, the average American will never be shot or know someone who died because of a shooting. And especially now that there are so many guns, it will be impossible to remove all of them when half the country feels it is their only defence against their government. I think if they remove the right then there will be a civil war. People feel very strongly about their individual right to self defence and see a bigger government as an imposition on their freedom.

Reply 94

yankeedog1953

14

Carlstudent has said it about as clearly and incisivley as it can be said. And somebody has finally mentioned the fact that MOST Americans feel their human rights are from God and not the Gov and sound aa though they really understand why its an important distinction. As for collectovism vs. the individual; isnt it usually a strong individual who the group usually turns to to save their collective butts from whatever mess they've gotten into? The masses really are asses. The individual has to be protected above all others or we're through.

Reply 95

Good bloke

19

Original post by yankeedog1953

MOST Americans feel their human rights are from God and not the Gov

A bunch of superstitious gung-ho people who have no real idea of what is good for them, then.

Reply 96

Underscore__

21

Original post by Good bloke

A bunch of superstitious gung-ho people who have no real idea of what is good for them, then.

Perhaps when you (or any other person) can find some evidence that definitively shows that legal gun ownership increases the likelihood of murder they might consider changing some laws

Reply 97

Good bloke

19

Original post by Underscore__

Perhaps when you (or any other person) can find some evidence that definitively shows that legal gun ownership increases the likelihood of murder they might consider changing some laws

Well, the opposite, that guns save lives, as claimed by our gun-toting, gung-ho American redneck friend, is certainly not true:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

Reply 98

Underscore__

21

Original post by Good bloke

Well, the opposite, that guns save lives, as claimed by our gun-toting, gung-ho American redneck friend, is certainly not true:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

I wouldn’t argue that Americans are necessarily safer because of legal gun ownership. What’s interesting is the article you posted talks about CDC research yet I didn’t see it reference the CDC study that estimates that defensive uses of firearms range from 500,000 to 3 million; that would means gun are used between 45 and 372 times more commonly for defence over homicide. The article also trots out the 33,000 deaths number which is a massive red herring because 2/3 of those are suicides. America is in no way abnormal among developed countries with regard to suicide so it’s just a cheap point to score against guns.

The simple truth is most gun violence in America is caused by gang violence. Stop the war on drugs and you cut down the power of gangs. Cut down the power of gangs and you cut down on the amount of shooting.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 99

QE2

20

Original post by Underscore__

Perhaps when you (or any other person) can find some evidence that definitively shows that legal gun ownership increases the likelihood of murder they might consider changing some laws

I have already linked to studies that show that US residents who keep a gun in the home are more likely to be shot than those who don't.
Really not sure how much clearer the argument can be.
Gun ownership increases the chances of being shot.
Or, in case that is too complex for some, not owning a gun reduces the chance of being shot.

This doesn't even touch on the issue of the majority of mass shootings in the US being carried out with legally-held guns.

Why are pro-gun supporters so unwilling to look at instances where gun control works?

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