Lorde Cancels Tel Aviv Concert After Calls to Boycott Israel
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Original post by AlexanderHam
It seems like you're about ten years behind the times.
In '06, Israel had no operational anti-missile system designed to intercept short-range rockets. Back then they had two systems; PAC-3, which intercepts medium-range rockets like Scud that fly high trajectories above the atmosphere, and they had the experimental Arrow system which, in theory, could intercept intermediate range ballistic missiles fired from thousands of miles away. Both those missiles have detaching warheads that intercept those missiles during the portion of their flight in space, above the atmosphere, and both are pretty expensive per missile.
Iron Dome is a missile system designed to intercept very short-range rockets of the sort fired by Hamas and Hezbollah (with a range of a few tens of kilometers, or maybe over 100 kilometers). The Iron Dome missile is mechanically quite simple, and only costs $40,000 per round (compared to $3 million for a PAC-3 missile).
Compare 2006 when 44 Israeli civilians were killed and over 1300 wounded by Hezbollah rockets, with 2014 when Iron Dome carried out over 1200 intercepts, and there were only six Israeli civilians killed and 87 wounded. It makes no sense to use a $3 million missile to intercept a rocket that only cost Hamas $5,000 to build. But using a $40,000 missile to intercept a $5,000 Hamas rocket, when Israel has over 50 times the GDP of Gaza? That's an acceptable exchange ratio.
It's like when people whine about the US using a $40,000 guided bomb to destroy a $15,000 truck with three ISIS fighters in it. It's a laughably simplistic notion given the US can afford to spend far more than ISIS can, and given sending in ground troops to destroy that $15,000 truck, and taking the risk of having your own soldiers killed, would be even more costly.
Israel can do 1250 Iron Dome intercepts for around $50 million. And the US Congress has sent direct financial aid to pay for Iron Dome rockets, so there's no question Israel can afford what it costs to intercept Hamas and Hezbollah rockets en masse.
So, back in 2006, Israel just had PAC-3 and an experimental Arrow 2.
Israel now has a multi-layered air defence system with numerous types of missiles. There is Iron Dome to intercept short-range rockets, Barak 8 which is an anti-aircraft missile, Stunner (Dolphin) which is a medium-range air defence and anti-missile, PAC-3 for medium range ballistic missiles and now Arrow 2 and Arrow 3 are operational to intercept intermediate and intercontinental-range ballistic missiles.
Finally, Iron Beam is a new component into this layered, interconnected air defence system which uses lasers to shoot missiles out of the sky. And given laser shots can cost as little as a dollar (you're not expending any expensive missile components, rockets), the advantage goes even more to the Israeli side.
Hezbollah would struggle to harm Israel using rockets in any future war, just as Hamas struggled to land a hit on Israel with rockets in 2014 and has had to turn to the system of attack tunnels.
I would say that if you're going to comment on this issue it behooves you to stay up to date with it. The long and short of this is that Israel has less security justification for holding onto territory, using the justification of strategic depth, with these systems operational.
Anyway, I end with a Bloomberg story about how Iron Dome works
[video="youtube;b4a_ie0J0hU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4a_ie0J0hU[/video]
In '06, Israel had no operational anti-missile system designed to intercept short-range rockets. Back then they had two systems; PAC-3, which intercepts medium-range rockets like Scud that fly high trajectories above the atmosphere, and they had the experimental Arrow system which, in theory, could intercept intermediate range ballistic missiles fired from thousands of miles away. Both those missiles have detaching warheads that intercept those missiles during the portion of their flight in space, above the atmosphere, and both are pretty expensive per missile.
Iron Dome is a missile system designed to intercept very short-range rockets of the sort fired by Hamas and Hezbollah (with a range of a few tens of kilometers, or maybe over 100 kilometers). The Iron Dome missile is mechanically quite simple, and only costs $40,000 per round (compared to $3 million for a PAC-3 missile).
Compare 2006 when 44 Israeli civilians were killed and over 1300 wounded by Hezbollah rockets, with 2014 when Iron Dome carried out over 1200 intercepts, and there were only six Israeli civilians killed and 87 wounded. It makes no sense to use a $3 million missile to intercept a rocket that only cost Hamas $5,000 to build. But using a $40,000 missile to intercept a $5,000 Hamas rocket, when Israel has over 50 times the GDP of Gaza? That's an acceptable exchange ratio.
It's like when people whine about the US using a $40,000 guided bomb to destroy a $15,000 truck with three ISIS fighters in it. It's a laughably simplistic notion given the US can afford to spend far more than ISIS can, and given sending in ground troops to destroy that $15,000 truck, and taking the risk of having your own soldiers killed, would be even more costly.
Israel can do 1250 Iron Dome intercepts for around $50 million. And the US Congress has sent direct financial aid to pay for Iron Dome rockets, so there's no question Israel can afford what it costs to intercept Hamas and Hezbollah rockets en masse.
So, back in 2006, Israel just had PAC-3 and an experimental Arrow 2.
Israel now has a multi-layered air defence system with numerous types of missiles. There is Iron Dome to intercept short-range rockets, Barak 8 which is an anti-aircraft missile, Stunner (Dolphin) which is a medium-range air defence and anti-missile, PAC-3 for medium range ballistic missiles and now Arrow 2 and Arrow 3 are operational to intercept intermediate and intercontinental-range ballistic missiles.
Finally, Iron Beam is a new component into this layered, interconnected air defence system which uses lasers to shoot missiles out of the sky. And given laser shots can cost as little as a dollar (you're not expending any expensive missile components, rockets), the advantage goes even more to the Israeli side.
Hezbollah would struggle to harm Israel using rockets in any future war, just as Hamas struggled to land a hit on Israel with rockets in 2014 and has had to turn to the system of attack tunnels.
I would say that if you're going to comment on this issue it behooves you to stay up to date with it. The long and short of this is that Israel has less security justification for holding onto territory, using the justification of strategic depth, with these systems operational.
Anyway, I end with a Bloomberg story about how Iron Dome works
[video="youtube;b4a_ie0J0hU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4a_ie0J0hU[/video]
I'm perfectly aware of how Iron dome etc. function but they are still inherently flawed in that they can easily be overwhelmed by a barrage of rocket fire. Not to mention the cost to Israel is extreme.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Some more awesome video of Iron Dome taking down terrorist rockets
Freedom fighters*
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
RT is fake news. Can't trust anything coming out of Putin's propaganda channel.
No it isnt.
You do know that people like CNN and the BBC regularly use footage from Ruptly?
Original post by AlexanderHam
Are you claiming the footage is falsified?
Didn't you get the memo? Anyone who goes anywhere near Russia Today is a Russian agent
I'm sure it is real. It is just a video of some rockets being fired though.
I would probs get my head bitten off if I used a RT video showing Palestinians being harassed by Israelite police or something. Have to think there is a double standard going on here. Next it will be a clip a state Iranian news channel
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Napp
Freedom fighters*
Do you condone the rocket attacks against Israel?
Original post by Ascend
Do you condone the rocket attacks against Israel?
In general? Yes. The Palestinians and Lebanese have every right to fight against an aggressive apartheid regime. Especially one which is squatting on their territory and drops cluster bombs on their cities.
Original post by Napp
In general? Yes. The Palestinians and Lebanese have every right to fight against an aggressive apartheid regime. Especially one which is squatting on their territory and drops cluster bombs on their cities.
So you have no qualms with the fact that they largely kill and injure civilians (including Palestinians) along with aiming to cause psychological trauma (literally to terrorise) the rest of the population in the targeted areas?
Original post by Ascend
So you have no qualms with the fact that they largely kill and injure civilians (including Palestinians) along with aiming to cause psychological trauma (literally to terrorise) the rest of the population in the targeted areas?
Its a pity but who am I to fault them for their method of war? Especially when it is express IDF policy to do literally just that.
Original post by Napp
Its a pity but who am I to fault them for their method of war? Especially when it is express IDF policy to do literally just that.
Interesting, so, of course, by that logic you can't fault the IDF for their identical terrorist activities (or, "freedom fighting", if you prefer).
Original post by Ascend
Interesting, so, of course, by that logic you can't fault the IDF for their identical terrorist activities (or, "freedom fighting", if you prefer).
Not quite, namely because they arent fighting for their freedom - you know being the invading occupiers and all? The Palestinians/Lebanese aren't going about ethnically cleansing people. Indeed what they're doing is little different from any other freedom fighting cause in history, would you say the French resistance deserved to be shot and bombed?
Also - as an after thought - did you seriously just compare firing a few medieval rockets to carpet bombing cities?
I do find you arm chair commentators most droll.Original post by Napp
Not quite, namely because they arent fighting for their freedom - you know being the invading occupiers and all? The Palestinians/Lebanese aren't going about ethnically cleansing people. Indeed what they're doing is little different from any other freedom fighting cause in history, would you say the French resistance deserved to be shot and bombed?
Also - as an after thought - did you seriously just compare firing a few medieval rockets to carpet bombing cities? I do find you arm chair commentators most droll.
Also - as an after thought - did you seriously just compare firing a few medieval rockets to carpet bombing cities?
I do find you arm chair commentators most droll.Actually, it was you who brought up the comparison when you admitted to the identical methods used in terrorising a populace. Yet you seem to have a double standard in supporting the intentional murder/maiming/terror against civilians from one side but not the other. I'm sorry for apparently being a droll armchair commentator not worthy of your obvious expertise but does "freedom fighting" somehow excuse targeting civilians?
Original post by AlexanderHam
Some more awesome video of Iron Dome taking down terrorist rockets
And just to really ram home the point that Iron Dome is inherently flawed please read this article from Haaretz;
https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/1.831921?__twitter_impression=true
Only a truly ignorant person would think Israels ABM shield is fool proof.
Original post by Ascend
Actually, it was you who brought up the comparison when you admitted to the identical methods used in terrorising a populace. Yet you seem to have a double standard in supporting the intentional murder/maiming/terror against civilians from one side but not the other. I'm sorry for apparently being a droll armchair commentator not worthy of your obvious expertise but does "freedom fighting" somehow excuse targeting civilians?
you cannot fault these people for their expertise in manipulating right-on media sentiment in the West. they are past masters at playing the helpless victim card.
Original post by Ascend
Actually, it was you who brought up the comparison when you admitted to the identical methods used in terrorising a populace. Yet you seem to have a double standard in supporting the intentional murder/maiming/terror against civilians from one side but not the other. I'm sorry for apparently being a droll armchair commentator not worthy of your obvious expertise but does "freedom fighting" somehow excuse targeting civilians?
Strangely enough motives do matter and the motives between the two are incomparable.
It is somewhat of a stretch to call people inhabiting stolen land innocent. At any rate it somewhat baffles one that you don't seem to be able to see the distinction in fighting for your life and home and punitively flattening large swathes of cities like what has happened in Gaza City and Beirut in recent years.
Its worth pointing out that few, if any, of Hamas's or Hezbollahs' rockets are guided and thus cant be 'targeting' anyone. You also seem to be ignoring the basic fact that Israelis have a propensity to build military targets into civillian areas so it is near enough impossible to separate the two.
Original post by Napp
Only a truly ignorant person would think Israels ABM shield is fool proof.
Only a truly ignorant person would think Israels ABM shield is fool proof.
You are confused. Where did I say the system performed flawlessly?
It performs sufficiently well that Israel managed to avoid much damage despite the thousands of rockets Hamas launched in 2014. They did very little damage, compared to 2006.
I know you have a desperate, psychopathological need to see Israeli civilians killed, but you're going to have to get used to the fact that Hamas rockets were impotent and ineffectual in 2014, just as Hezbollah's will be in any future conflict. Neither organisation will be able to land a punch on Israel. Hamas switched their tactics to focus on attack tunnels due to the complete ineffectiveness of their rockets, and now Israel has developed defences to that too.
So when Hamas decides to provoke Israel into war again, they will ineffectually launch thousands of rockets, while Israeli civilians will sit safe in their air raid bunkers. Iron Dome / Iron Beam will shoot down Hamas rockets and any that get through the net will be ineffectual because Israeli civilians will be in underground bunkers. And while they are safe in their bunkers, the Israeli Air Force will be pounding the hell out of Hamas terrorists. Israel uses missiles like Iron dome, and air raid bunkers, to protect their civilians. Hamas uses civilian shields to protect their missiles from counterattack, and uses their underground bunkers to protect the cowardly Hamas leadership rather than protect their civilians.
No individual system performs flawlessly, but having multiple overlapping air defence systems like Iron Dome, Iron Beam, Barak 8, Stunner, PAC-3, Arrow 2 and Arrow 3 provides precisely the sort of multiply-redundant protective capability that will make Hamas/Hezbollah rocket capabilities an irrelevance in future.
But hey, if you're going to argue that these rocket systems really are dangerous then Israel has every right to defend itself and do whatever is necessary to stop the rockets being fired
I guess it's much easier to be a chickenhawk like you are, hysterically egging on Hamas from the sidelines and hoping for a conflict, because you're not the one who will suffer the consequences. Each time Hamas provokes Israel into war, the citizens of Gaza suffer even more, and their infrastructure and economy is wiped out yet again, with the damage accumulating with each war. And yet you are quite happy for this to happen. After all, you're not volunteering to be a human shield for a Hamas launch site. You're not the one who has to worry about your home being destroyed by an Israeli bomb because Hamas decided to set up a command centre in the apartment building. You don't have to be anxious that you won't have a job because of a conflict. What a revolting coward you are.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Napp
I'm perfectly aware of how Iron dome etc.
You weren't even aware Iron Dome existed
You literally had no clue that there had been any change in Israel's air defence capabilities post-2006.
Original post by Napp
Except they obviously weren't overwhelmed in 2014. Iron Dome worked extremely well. Despite firing thousands of rockets, Hamas didn't even kill ten people with them.
And Hamas rockets are so laughably primitive that Iron Dome doesn't have to engage every rocket. The ID fire control system picks up the rockets by radar and then calculates whether they are to fall in a populated or strategic area. Only if it is do they engage it. And when they do engage, the system is extremely effective when paired with Israel's civil defence system of bunkers and siren warnings, and will be even more so once Iron Beam, Barak 8 and Stunner come online.
Not to mention the cost to Israel is extreme
Clearly not extreme given Israel is easily affording it and the United States is providing about 50% of the money to fund them.
Freedom fighters
Sharia law is freedom?
Probably better to end the conversation there. I don't engage with fascistic homophobes.
IDF strikes Hamas targets after Gaza rocket hits Israeli community
Boom. Headshot
Israel carried out a series of strikes against Hamas targets in Gaza Friday afternoon, the army said, in retaliation for a volley of rockets fired at Israel from the Palestinian enclave.
The retaliatory fire came an hour after three rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip, in the first such incident in over a week.
Two of the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome air defense system while the third fell in Israeli territory in the Shaar Hanegev region, on the Gaza border.
The retaliatory fire came an hour after three rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip, in the first such incident in over a week.
Two of the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome air defense system while the third fell in Israeli territory in the Shaar Hanegev region, on the Gaza border.
Boom. Headshot
Original post by AlexanderHam
You weren't even aware Iron Dome existed
You literally had no clue that there had been any change in Israel's air defence capabilities post-2006.
You literally had no clue that there had been any change in Israel's air defence capabilities post-2006.
If you say so
I find your arrogant attidue quite cute really, youhave no idea of what other people are aware
Original post by AlexanderHam
Except they obviously weren't overwhelmed in 2014. Iron Dome worked extremely well. Despite firing thousands of rockets, Hamas didn't even kill ten people with them.
Er the lack of accurany and abundance of fall out shelters of the Israelis doesnt make a difference? Your ignorance is absolutely astounding, have you ever even been there?
This is a Palestinian child arrested in his home village two weeks ago, interrogated without his parents or a lawyer present and now released but told to report to the Israeli military on 14th January to face possible trial.
Meanwhile, the annual rate of settler attacks (2,100 attacks in 8 years) has almost quadrupled between 2006 and 2014. The Palestinian police, in their own country, are not allowed to intervene in crimes by Jewish settlers. Over 90% of settler crimes reported to the Israeli military resulted in no action being taken (This increased to 100% for criminal damage).
The same military that jails 11 and 12 year old Palestinian children for throwing stones takes no action when Jewish settlers burn down olive groves, block roads, shoot Palestinian farmers or run down and kill children with a car.
As I understand it, the boycott of Israel is in response to its actions in the Occupied territories and Gaza. Any comments about the life enjoyed by Israeli Arabs within the borders of Israel are irrelevant. When the Palestinians living in the West Bank have the same rights and face the same legal system as those living within Israel you might have a valid point.
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