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Secularism of France

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread, but anyway...

Do you think France will continue to become less secular than it was in the early 1900s thanks to multiculturalism etc, or do you think that France will continue to keep religion out of politics? I mean, last year Sarko went to the Vatican and publicly extolled the benefits of religion - then he went to Saudi Arabia, I think, and did the same thing! Hardly keeping religion separate from politics...

What do you guys think?

Reply 1

The other Boleyn girl

I think France will maintain a strict separation of religion and state for the foreseeable future, which is reassuring for all French citizens of course.

The proportion of Muslims and other religious minorities within France maybe rising, but the overall percentage of those who describe themselves as atheist, secular and etc in surveys, polls and etc is increasingly. The general populace is becoming less tolerant of religion.

Reply 2

Axiom

1

pretz

...if demographic trends continue then Muslims will be able to vote secularism out of the French Republic.

Highly unlikely. Less than 10 percent of France's population is Islamic.

Reply 3

The other Boleyn girl

pretz

There is no conceivable reason why the rapidly growing Muslim population in France will become more secular, if demographic trends continue then Muslims will be able to vote secularism out of the French Republic.

You might be interested to know that the majority of French Muslim women actually support the ban on overt religious symbols, including the hijab, in public schools. This suggests that those who, for one reason or another, identify themselves as Muslims, are able to reconcile their religion with secularism and modern Western society.

Reply 4

Ethelred the Unready

charlie_gibson

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread, but anyway...

Do you think France will continue to become less secular than it was in the early 1900s thanks to multiculturalism etc, or do you think that France will continue to keep religion out of politics? I mean, last year Sarko went to the Vatican and publicly extolled the benefits of religion - then he went to Saudi Arabia, I think, and did the same thing! Hardly keeping religion separate from politics...

What do you guys think?

There's a very crucial difference between Sarkozy's view on religion and how it affects his politics. Politians are allowed their own personal, private beliefs. That doesn't mean religion isn't being kept separate from politics.

I generally favour secularisation, but I've visited French schools and do wish they'd offer more pastoral care. Securalisation shouldn't mean eradicating a communal atmosphere and not caring about the well-being of the students. Religious themes in a school can help in these areas for certain faith communities... However I generally favour secular schools, and there are ways to keep the benefits of faith schools in secular schools.

Reply 5

Axiom

1

pretz

Yes, and the overall Muslim birthrate is far higher than that of the indigenous French. Unless all immigration from Muslim countries to France was stopped, Muslim women started having significantly less children and indigenous French women started having significantly more, these all being things that aren't going to happen, then the Muslim population of France is going to grow and the French are going to have to say goodbye to secularism.

The French policy of laïcité is enshrined in France's constitution. Outwith parliamentary change, a referendum would be required, and obviously, there would need to be above 50% support for a change that would abolish France's secularism. To therefore claim that Muslims will number >50% of France's population (and also claim that all of those Muslims will support changes abolishing secularism) is first-degree piffle.

Reply 6

Invocation

12

pretz

Yes, and the overall Muslim birthrate is far higher than that of the indigenous French. Unless all immigration from Muslim countries to France was stopped, Muslim women started having significantly less children and indigenous French women started having significantly more, these all being things that aren't going to happen, then the Muslim population of France is going to grow and the French are going to have to say goodbye to secularism.You're not taking into account the fact that Muslims can become atheists as well.

Reply 7

The other Boleyn girl

_ÆNIMA_

You're not taking into account the fact that Muslims can become atheists as well.

Exactly. Exposure to free, rational thought in Western culture is bound to have an impact on immigrants and their offsprings. As atheism continues to increase throughout the West among the Christian majorities, many Muslims will also grow cold from their faith.

A decade or so reform under Ataturk during the 1920/1930's has ensured that the vast majority of the Turkish have been loyal to the secular republic for almost a century. There's little reason to fear an Islamization of Western Europe as long as we adhere to freedom of speech and openly express our opinions with regard to Islam.

Reply 8

The other Boleyn girl

pretz

Logically I would think this too, however, it does not seem to be the case as most young Muslims in this country are actually a lot more religious than their parents. Perhaps we can put this down to the ideology of multiculturalism that gives equal status to every culture and religion. This is a society that respects every religion except Christianity.

There is some evidence which suggests that a certain significant portion of young Europeans Muslims are more 'religious' than their parents, but there's equal evidence that a certain equivalent, if not larger, portion of young European Muslims who are more secular and Westernised than their parents. Like you, I'm not fond of the concept of multiculturalism. However, your comment regarding Christianity is very disingenuous and almost repulsive. Here in the UK, the Christian faith, especially the Church of England enjoy considerable privileges not bestowed upon other religions. Perhaps it seems like Christianity is being treated 'harshly' by Europe because for the first time we're witnessing Christianity being held equal, rather than supreme, to other religions.

pretz

In Europe freedom of speech regarding Islam does not exist without death threats, destroyed embassies and police protection as is evidenced by the Mohammed cartoons.

This is a real issue of course, and that's why I was referring to in my earlier comment. We in Europe should continuously reassert our attachment to freedom of speech, whoever may be at the receiving end of one's criticism, joke and etc.

Reply 9

*Star*Guitar*

17

pretz

Hint: you don't need the ballot box when you have bullets and bombs.

pretz

I am sure that SOME French Muslim women support it, I certainly recall Muslim girls at the school I went to who would wear the veil around their shoulders as much as possible but were called whores and *****es by their male Muslim peers until they put them back on.

It is this sort of mentality that makes me think religion is on the whole, damaging and regressive, and therefore unecessary.

I support secularism and wouldn't mind religion playing the most minimal part in society in general.

We should be more like France instead of treading on eggshells, but from what I vaguely remember of recent English cases, the judges' decisions could have been worse.

Reply 10

saklut

pretz

I certainly recall Muslim girls at the school I went to who would wear the veil around their shoulders as much as possible but were called whores and *****es by their male Muslim peers until they put them back on.

Unfortunately I agree with that. The society puts pressure on their people to obey some strict rules and the people have to obey them to avoid alienation and harassment. This is why we shouldn't regard religious and cultural rules as the personal free choice and the human right of an individual such as the veil which is nothing but the symbol of captivity of women. I believe a true secular state should not allow any kind of those religious symbols for the actual freedom of their citizens.

Secularism of France

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