If you could study anything, what would you choose? [Golden Thread]

I attend a state school, so I’ve never been exposed to courses such as Latin, Ancient Greek, Classic Civilisations, or Mythology. In another life, I think I would have made a good mythologist or expert on Classic Civilisations. Maybe one day I’ll self-teach some Latin/Ancient Greek, and I could get into mythology myself.

I actually know of some really great resources for self-teaching Latin, and though I can't speak for Greek, I heard a story that Robert Fagles, a very famous translator of literature from a variety of ancient languages, and possibly the preeminent translator of Homer in the modern era, taught himself Greek on the bus to college.

For Latin, you should look into Wheelock's Latin. It was first published in 1956, and it's regarded as one of the best introductory Latin textbooks you can buy, and IIRC, it's fairly cheap. I'm sure Greek will have an equivalent. It's worth having a look around your local Blackwell's too, as they will probably have a whole section of textbooks for both Latin and Greek.

It's also worth noting that you don't actually have to have studied Latin and Greek at school to study Classics at uni. It would be extraordinarily discriminatory for universities like Oxbridge to turn you down because you went to a school where you had no chance of studying Latin or Greek, which is the case for (presumably) every state school in the country. I went to a fairly posh state school (Edinburgh) and even they didn't offer Latin or Greek. The same also goes for any language course, in any uni, that isn't French, Spanish or German (or whatever languages are offered at your school).

The easiest workaround is to study French and Spanish (the only two Latinate languages widely taught in the UK, though if you have the chance to study Italian that would be even better), and two of History, English Lit., or Maths at A Level, though I'm sure there are other combinations that would be equally viable.

Obviously, good grades at both GCSE and A Level are a must if you did want to study at Oxbridge, and it would also be worthwhile reading classical texts in translation (there should be at least some available at your local library - some exam boards require you to study classical texts such as the Oresteia for English literature) and mentioning this on your personal statement to show interest. I would actually go as far as to say that Oxbridge would breathe a sigh of relief at a state school student applying for Classics, as the course composition must be well over 90%, if not actually 100%, private school kids - as it is for a number of Oxbridge courses, I'm sure.

If you aren't bothered about Oxbridge specifically, my cousin is actually studying Classics at Glasgow, and I know that it is offered at many other unis around the country. I think other unis tend to read more in translation than Oxbridge do, and I believe there is less of a focus on learning the language and more on appreciating the literature and culture, but I'm sure it is more than possible to study both Latin and Greek to an advanced level.

Thank you for such a detailed response! I’m actually looking to study Law at university (preferably Cambridge). Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to take French or Spanish because I took German (which I love). I suppose I would study Latin/Greek as a sort of hobby, because I have a great interest in mythology. Of course, I’m only just starting Year 12 so I will definitely consider studying Classics now that you’ve given me some hope (because a Law degree isn’t necessary for a career in Law).

I don't know if you read my post further up, but I'm actually starting my first year of a Law degree at Glasgow in September! It's not necessarily my passion either, but it's a good degree and I think I'll enjoy, so I'm gonna give it a shot. I also took German up to Higher, so I have all kinds of advice I can give you.

I would still consider applying for Classics at Oxbridge. The subjects you are doing for Law (presumably English, History etc.) are still very academic, and writing and literary analysis are the crux of what forms a Classics course (the Oxford Classics course's proper name is literae humaniores, which literally means human literature (as opposed to divine literature, which is theology). Also, if you're studying German post-16, it is both a language subject (with similarly rigorous grammar to Latin) and a very serious, academic subject, so that would look great on a Classics application.

And frankly, they really are not in a position to be turning down high-achieving, ambitious state school students who have an interest in Classics simply because they don't study languages post-16. Most state school students don't even know Classics exists as a course, and they certainly aren't tailoring their subject choices to it.

I'm about to dive into my personal vendetta against Oxbridge here, so skip this if you're not that fussed, but I will offer you some advice at the end.

There were three kids who applied to Oxbridge from my school. One was very intelligent and a great kid, and got in, but they're not the subject of my story.

The two others will remain anonymous, but let's call them A and B. A was a prick. They came from a seriously rich family (investment banker rich), thought he ran the school, bullied people - the whole regalia. They genuinely weren't that bright, but they got loads of tutors and support and somehow got 6 A*s at GCSE and good predicted grades at A Level(Before I switched to the Scottish system, I got 4 A*s at GCSE, and that was during a messy parental divorce - GCSEs are not hard if you try). B was an average kid, and I think they actually had some home problems too. They were lovely, always friendly to everyone, kind of guy who had no enemies. Anyway, he got 5 A*s and similarly good predicted grades. Brilliant kid, real passion for the subject. They both applied for PPE at Oxford, and both got interviews.

You can guess who got in.

I never applied to Oxbridge, because I wouldn't have gotten in (though I did get 32 on the LNAT, so who knows), and I love Glasgow. However, the elitism of Oxbridge, which was really rammed home for me by that little anecdote there, really gets to me. If you did apply for Classics (and not to get too emotional here), you would be giving a massive **** you to the class system, and I would really respect that.

Anyway, back to the advice. If you're doing English and History, make sure you take thorough notes on the set texts from day one. I didn't do this, and I was doing them both at Advanced Higher, and though I got A's in both, let me tell you, it took a gargantuan effort in the last couple of weeks. Similarly, complete every essay you're given to the best of your ability, ideally under exam conditions. Much of A Level is learning to write a different, more involved kind of essay. It's also essential you communicate big time with your teachers about your coursework, to make sure you get the best grades you possibly can.

Make sure you're making friends with your teachers from day one (my English teacher and I had a bonding sesh over De Profundis), and make sure you've reading heavy duty literature to broaden your vocab. I can't recommend the Bronte sisters enough - or, if you're a masochist, there's always George Eliot. Fitzgerald is a lovely writer too.

Personal statements and (for Law) aptitude tests are a massive way that Oxbridge and other top unis differentiate their candidates. If you do Classics, make sure you are highlighting your interest for the subject despite being at a state school. I'm sure they'll love that. On a personal note, I'd also try and shoehorn in Keats' "On first looking into Chapman's Homer" as a convincing origin story - it will show originality, that you don't just read the classics, and that you're all round erudite (we stan an educated queen). Similarly, for Law, read some of the judgements of Lord Denning. There is no law professor in the Anglophone world who doesn't love a bit of Denning, so if you namedrop him they'll love it.

If you're doing the LNAT, make sure you're utilising the practice tests to their fullest, and don't worry about the essay too much - by the time you sit the LNAT, you'll be a kickass essayist. For your personal statement, I'd try and have some nice shiny extracurricular engagement there too - if you're in London, and still keen on Classics head to the British Museum for a day (or Hadrian's Wall if you're up North), or for Law, try and see if you can watch a case or two at your local court.

All in all, just study hard, read widely, develop an interest, and you'll do great. Oxbridge won't know what hit them.

TLDR: Don't let anybody, including yourself, tell you you can't do something.

That’s probably the most inspirational reply I’ve ever received on TSR, so thank you for dedicating so much of your time to replying to me. I am studying History and English Lit (surprise surprise) and I spent some of my precious summer holidays reading Jane Eyre for the coming year (and it’s now my favourite book). Unfortunately my school decided to withdraw funding for the German A Level course, which leaves only one state sixth form in Cardiff that offers it at A Level (and it’s not a very good school in terms of pastoral care and general effort), so my journey of learning a language in school will be halted for the moment. However, I love the German language and will continue to pursue it in my free time.

Anyway, moving forward I will definitely work as if I can overcome any barriers in my path, because I know that I can. Since your last reply I’ve researched different Latin textbooks and have my eye on a few in particular.

In terms of Law, did you participate in any forms of work experience before applying to university? I’ve tried to look for opportunities but have struggled to come across viable options. Also, what reading material would you recommend before applying (e.g. books or court reports).

OMG I love Jane Eyre and Villette, but I'm forever faithful to Emily and Wuthering Heights. And haha what can I say, I'm passionate about passionate people.

If you do apply for Classics, absolutely mention that thing about German A Level on your application. If you do genuinely continue learning it in your own time, 1) you're a hero and 2) that is really impressive and is something you should include on your personal statement. You can actually get it certified by something called the Goethe institute, or alternatively you can try and self-study German A Level if you're not already doing 4 A Levels. Similarly, if you study Latin outside of school, obviously mention that on your statement, and if there's anyway you can try and sit a qualification in it, even if it's just GCSE, try and do that. It will show so much self-determination. I literally can't see Oxbridge rejecting a state school student with good grades who self-studied Latin - it would be the height of hypocrisy, and possibly worthy of going to the press with if it was particularly egregious.

Onto Law, though.

I actually cheated a little. I attended court many times, and put that on my application. What I didn't let on was that I was attending my father's domestic violence trial, and my parents' subsequent divorce. You can however watch a lot of court cases from the public gallery, which will allow you to see the law in action as well as demonstrating interest.

Legal work experience is really hard to come by at 17, but if you know any lawyers, try and get in touch with them - they may let you shadow them. You can also email legal firms near you, but I'm not sure how likely this is to be successful. I will say that they don't even ask for legal work experience for vacation schemes, which are what you would do in the second year of uni, so the unis themselves will not be expecting you to have legal work experience on your application. I know Glasgow certainly didn't.

Reading is something I can talk about with a lot more authority. A great introductory book you should definitely read (which I believe is actually on the Cambridge Law preliminary reading list) is 'Is eating people wrong?' by Allan C. Hutchinson. It will give you a really good insight into the workings of the common law system, as well as introducing you to the kind of cases that a law degree is likely to focus on, and the legal questions they address.

If you're interested in some meatier reading, I'd begin with Dworkin's 'Law's Empire'. If you get into legal philosophy, that choice will seem completely backwards - it's a little like starting a History course from the most recent events - but Dworkin presents his ideas in an entertaining manner, and the book is a lot more accessible than some of the more formal stuff. Other modern legal scholars you should read are H.L.A Hart (whose book 'The Concept of Law' I'm actually reading now, and whose views are from the opposing school of thought to Dworkin's, the former being a (soft) legal positivist, and the latter a proponent of natural law, terms you will become familiar with if you study Jurisprudence) and John Finnis (though I can list some more if you like).

At the other end of the chronological spectrum, you could read the classical philosophers. From amongst the Greeks, I'd recommend Plato and Aristotle ('The Republic' and 'Laws' from the former, 'Nichomachean Ethics' and 'Politics' from the latter), and of course, Cicero from amongst the Romans (you should also try and read some of his speeches - what a guy).

In the middle, you have guys like Jeremy Bentham (the father of legal positivism, kinda) and Thomas Hobbes. Their stuff is written in archaic, dense English, but they will both be heavily referenced at somewhere like Cambridge, and are admittedly seminal authors in the field of legal philosophy.

In terms of case law, get ready to be very familiar with Miller, full title 'R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Leaving the European Union', which was the case that said Parliament had to vote on our invoking Article 50 and starting the divorce process with the European Union. I'm more familiar with Scot's constitutional law cases, but you should also take a look at 'Madzimbamuto v Lardner-Clarke' (I kid you not that's it's real name), which clarifies the idea of Parliamentary sovereignty for you a bit. Others might be 'Thoburn v Sunderland City Council', or 'R v Jogee' (which there is an interesting podcast about, I think by the actual Cambridge Law faculty). For a weird and wonderful case from the American legal system, look at 'United States v One book called Ulysses' for an example of in rem jurisdiction. I can get back to you with an extensive list tomorrow if you want.

I wouldn't concern yourself too much with diving into case law, though. I think it would be a better use of your time to get intimately familiar with the structure of the English legal system, including the different areas of jurisdiction, the entire concept of stare decisis (precedent), and some of the fundamental concepts behind different areas of law, such as Parliamentary sovereignty for constitutional law, the concept of 'mens rhea' in criminal law, and the precise meaning of the word 'tort' (which we call delict up north).

I have a lot more, but that should set you off to a good start.

EDIT: Just to clarify, R vs Jogee is a case related to criminal law which sets precedent on the idea of joint enterprise. I realise I just inserted it into a long list of constitutional law cases, which makes it look like a constitutional law case. Sorry for the confusion.

I also meant to say that if you are still interested in Classics, I have a long list of classical authors I enjoy who I promise aren't that boring.

Both of those lists would be an amazing introduction to Law and Classics! I’ve been trying to find a starting point in terms of familiarising myself with the English legal system, but have struggled to find a point where I don’t need to have any previous knowledge, for my knowledge is only basic (I can basically define “mens rea” and that’s it).