Why do you believe in your perspective of morality?

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I am more than familiar with the OP and they are not being open-minded or trying to understand others. They are merely attempting to justify and promote the "objective morality" of Islam and reject any kind of acquired, subjective morality. They are hoping for replies to which they can go "Aha! But what about...?"

Ask them if slavery is "objectively moral" or "objectively immoral".

Well, I don't know them, and I am a descent of European culture, so I try to debate and convincing before I would be forced to use a sword and I could use a sword only to defend myself or other victims of unjust persecution.

Some villains should indeed finally understand that even the West has a limited patience and it's still capable of annihilating even entire nations thanks to its technological superiority.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 21

PTMalewski

Original post by Zamestaneh

1. I have always considered LGBT issues as repulsive and I did not grow up in an Abrahamic faith, nor was it drilled into me to hate them.

2. Opposition to rape is an emotional one rather than evolutionary - why should we prioritise a secondary effect of altruism (emotional empathy) over a primary biological need (to reproduce)?

3. Altruism does extend to other animals - many humans are compassionate to animals in some way or form just as they are to humans. If you would argue this is learned behaviour, I would equally argue compassion to other humans is learned behaviour.

4. So essentially the balance is an inconsistent subjective standard whereby different societies are equally justified in deciding what is good for them?

1. Speaking of repulsive things: I'm unable to recognize what sort of Muslim flag do you have in your avatar, especially since it's pretty small and hard to distinguish, but apart from the fact that lots of people would think it's Al-Nusra's or Boko Haram's flag, which you could ignore, you should actually consider the fact that in European culture black colour is associated with things such as death, crime and piracy, so most Europeans instantly begin to feel insecure when they see a black flag, because such is associated with crime and piracy.
For the same reason, an average European is culturally repulsive towards women wearing niqabs, not only because those are black, but mainly because they cover up faces, which in European culture is associated with hiding identity while committing a crime. If we had acted on repulsive feelings, we would have expelled all Muslim women wearing niqabs and all Muslims waving any sort of black Islamic flags.

4. Balance is not an inconsistent and subjective standard. It is perfectly objective only it is terribly difficult to measure or define, therefore there are many subjective interpretations of said balance. Are they equally justified? Not necessarily as we would argue that some societies are superior in terms of their ability to collect, measure and analyse data they've managed to collect from this objective world in which we all live in.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 22

QE2

Original post by Zamestaneh

1. I have always considered LGBT issues as repulsive

Ah. Is that what attracted you to Islam?

3. Altruism does extend to other animals - many humans are compassionate to animals in some way or form just as they are to humans. If you would argue this is learned behaviour, I would equally argue compassion to other humans is learned behaviour.

Compassion isn't the same as empathy. Humans have always appreciated the value of animals, whether that is for their work, company, coat or meat. I fail to see why you think that shows that morality is objective.

4. So essentially the balance is an inconsistent subjective standard whereby different societies are equally justified in deciding what is good for them?

. Morality is subjective, dependent on time and place, and while it is justified to them it may not be justified to others. I have told you this several times before and we can observe it in reality. Not sure why you think otherwise.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 23

QE2

Original post by PTMalewski

1. Speaking of repulsive things: I'm unable to recognize what sort of Muslim flag do you have in your avatar, especially since it's pretty small and hard to distinguish, but apart from the fact that lots of people would think it's Al-Nusra's or Boko Haram's flag, which you could ignore, you should actually consider the fact that in European culture black colour is associated with things such as death, crime and piracy, so most Europeans instantly begin to feel insecure when they see a black flag, because such is associated with crime and piracy.
For the same reason, an average European is culturally repulsive towards women wearing niqabs, not only because those are black, but mainly because they cover up faces, which in European culture is associated with hiding identity while committing a crime. If we had acted on repulsive feelings, we would have expelled all Muslim women wearing niqabs and all Muslims waving any sort of black Islamic flags. It has been pointed out to him before but he claims that it is mere coincidence that it bears a striking resemblance to the flags favoured by Islamist extremist groups. The fact that he also promotes what some would consider to be Islamist extremist views is also mere coincidence, apparently.

It's a bit like all those people we see with swastika tattoos, armbands and flags who are merely displaying it as an auspicious Hindu symbol, nothing to do with the German National Socialist party. Just an unfortunate coincidence.

Reply 24

QE2

Original post by Convicted Rapist

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Why not? Books often have a synopsis and quotes from literary reviews on the cover. You can certainly get a basic idea, if not the details.
Also, after having read several chapters one can have a good idea of what the rest of it is like..

I am sure he is a nice guy.

How does one separate the "nice" from the "nasty"? Does one cancel out the other. It's what I call the "Jimmy Savile Defence". Do we excuse all the child rape because of the millions raised for charity? (This is a general point - I am not in any way referring to any specific TSR member)

Why are you always bullying him because of his religion?

I merely ask questions and make observations if I see statements that I think need addressing or challenging. That is all.

Reply 25

Vinny C

Original post by Zamestaneh

If you agree morality can change and has subjective elements, would you feel that liberal Western society is wrong to try to impose certain values on other societies around the world like it does, or do you feel that it is the duty of a person with a set of morals to try to impose their morals on other people in order for those moral to mean anything?

A society needs commonly agree values to properly function. As the world shrinks (ie, we travel further), clashes are inevitable. Only way forward is communication, tolerance and compromise.

Reply 26

Retired_Messiah

1) In terms of how that actually manifests itself in practical terms, I essentially try to follow the golden rule as much as I can, but obviously the golden rule doesn't necessarily apply in certain contexts (eg deciding how to punish a criminal in court or some such), in which case I seem to fall to utilitarianism for lack of a better alternative. So were I to supply some philosophy words for what I'm actually doing... I guess the only philosophical terminology I could reasonably apply to my ethics is hedonism, except I get off on being nice to people.

In short, I believe I am selfish but enjoy doing nice things for others sometimes and being regarded as 'good' by others, so it creates a system of mutual benefit by accident and makes me effectively apply a combination of theories that exist.

2) Well given the hedonism part, if I feel good after I've done a thing and can't find any room for regret, I'd then consider that a 'good' thing.I don't believe any form of objective morality is discoverable, if it even exists at all, so there is technically a chance I could be way off base. However, if I switched to any other system I'd still have that issue and also likely be less happy with it.

3) I don't, but I'd rather feel good about myself than not, and no real officialised 'objective' moral theory that I've came across has ever had me totally convinced. I don't follow any organised religion as that has myriad philosophy problems, and any secular theory I've come across has immediately fell prey to the is-ought problem, and usually numerous other theory-specific problems.

4) I'd be interested to see your reasoning for believing such. But then if you don't successfully convince me with a decent argument to abandon my half assed moral way, then my opinion would sort of hold more value than yours to me. This is distinct from it having objective value: I don't believe that objective morality is discoverable, if it exists at all, as already stated. As such, if you couldn't convince me that your ethical opinion was objectively correct I'd have no reason to value it more than my own opinion, and I'd likely default to my position as it makes me feel better about myself than being a murdering rapist would.

I'm not actually sure if this post makes any sense as I'm writing it at 2am but I think it about sums up what I think about how I act.