Moral courage is rare

OP

JonathanH

You should read up on Wolfowitz's views, rather than what his detractors say.

Anyway, we're losing sight of the point, which I think is your intention. Because you don't appear to be able to stomach saying you admire the moral courage of those (who you can't deny exist) who supported the war due to their belief in its morality.

No it's not my intention. I could stomach it if I believed it was moral courage but I genuinely don't in most cases. Anyway, I was referring to Cheney as the main architect, not Wolfowitz.

Reply 22

OP

Greatleysteg

Then this isn't that rare, it's just that high-profile instances of it are - people prefer a scandal and a coward on the front page to someone doing the right thing. It happens all the time in the day-to-day lives of the general public.

How many people would, for example, go against popular kids to stick up for a bullied or unpopular one?

Reply 23

JaFF

Since this is a student forum, I guess I can use terms from psychology...

Moral courage is the ability to follow through your scenario. Moral courage creates winners. Absence of it therefore creates loosers. Yes, it is rare, just like winners.

Reply 24

OP

My point to you JonH, which has been asked a million times and never answered, was that if it wasn't to do with oil, and about principle, why are they not interested in removing other tyrants?
They in fact have backed plenty for their own self-interest.
If you want to debate whether a self-interested war with mixed motives was moral then thats legitimate.
It's also legitimate to discuss whether it was moral to take 12yr old PHD thesis off the web to decieve the public into war.
But don't pretend it was all about freeing people from oppression, that just displays naivety about foreign policy

Reply 25

Greatleysteg

19

naivesincerity

How many people would, for example, go against popular kids to stick up for a bullied or unpopular one?

Quite a few - you always get decent people in every year group. Okay, so probably not everyone, probably not even more than half - but more than you'd think.

It all depends on which environment you're in. Maybe I just see too much good in people, but I know I certainly did just that; forewent my popularity for my morals.

Reply 26

naivesincerity

I could stomach it if I believed it was moral courage but I genuinely don't in most cases.

Most cases as in most cases in the world, or most cases as in in the case of most people behind the war?

naivesincerity

Anyway, I was referring to Cheney as the main architect, not Wolfowitz.

I know you said Cheney. But pointing to someone and saying their motives were not moral ones doesn't invalidate the point that other people may have had motives that were moral - hence my reference to others with differing reasons for their support.

Reply 27

naivesincerity

My point to you JonH, which has been asked a million times and never answered, was that if it wasn't to do with oil, and about principle, why are they not interested in removing other tyrants?
There are those who are interested in removing other tyrants but are restricted by resources at their disposal and the realities of the world at this point in time.

naivesincerity

If you want to debate whether a self-interested war with mixed motives was moral then thats legitimate.
I don't want to have that debate, I want you to say that you acknowledge moral courage in those that were behind the war for moral reasons, not due to mixed motives. Or admit that you only acknowledge moral courage when you agree with the views of the person.

At the moment it is obvious you are desperately throwing up every old, recycled argument surrounding the war to avoid having to answer a very simple question.

So here it is again, very simply:
Do you believe that those people who backed the Iraq war due to an honest belief that it was morally good to do so despite the risks, showed moral courage?

One more refusal to answer on your part, and I consign this pointless debate to the dustbin due to your refusal to answer a simple question for fear that the answer will be used against you or you will be revealed as a hypocrite.

Reply 28

OP

JonathanH

At the moment it is obvious you are desperately throwing up every old, recycled argument surrounding the war to avoid having to answer a very easy question. So here it is again, very simply:
Do you believe that those people who backed the Iraq war due to their belief that it was morally good to do so despite the risks, showed moral courage?

Recycled yet unanswered and valid arguments. If they standed to be pilloried by people who's opinons they cared about, and believed it to be for moral good, then yes I could acknowledge moral courage. However, as I've said to you, I really don't believe that was the case in ALL pro-war politicians. There is not a Politician alive who couldn't have known that self-interest was a factor.

Reply 29

I didn't ask you if that was asking you if that was the case in "ALL pro-war politicians", I specifically asked you if it was the case in "those who backed the Iraq war due to an honest belief that it was morally good to do so". Notice, I didn't say "all" and I didn't even say "politicians". I'm solely interested in if you can admit that people who could back the war for moral reasons despite being pilloried etc. showed moral courage in doing so.

Reply 30

OP

JonathanH

I didn't ask you if that was asking you if that was the case in "ALL pro-war politicians", I specifically asked you if it was the case in "those who backed the Iraq war due to an honest belief that it was morally good to do so". Notice, I didn't say "all" and I didn't say "politicians".

I answered your question perfectly well in the previous sentence. So don't get on your high horse.

Reply 31

You also used the word "standed", I spent a long time giggling at that.

Reply 32

Coldplaydoh

16

This is a rare occurence of "moral courage"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_zi0_LjHHN4

Always gives me shivers...

Reply 33

OP

JonathanH

You also used the word "standed", I spent a long time giggling at that.

'Stood to gain' then-pedant.

Nice hypocritical criticism of evasion anyway.

Reply 34

How have I been hypocritical? What question have I evaded?

Reply 35

Nu Ordah!!!!!!!!!!!!

In everyday life it is rare, because demonstrating moral courage is likely to get you sacked or thrown in the cells. In Britain especially its not seen as polite to upset the applecart.

Reply 36

yawn

17

Nu Ordah!!!!!!!!!!!!

In everyday life it is rare, because demonstrating moral courage is likely to get you sacked or thrown in the cells. In Britain especially its not seen as polite to upset the applecart.

I think it depends on the interpretation of what constitutes 'moral courage' to the observer which dictates their attitudes to it.

As an example; you seem to think that moral courage is such that it's ramifications involve physical punishments rather than ostracisation from the immediate community.

Reply 37

EndangeredSpecies

It is diffucult having moral courage. I have many opinions that some people disagree with and if you make your opinions clear you can be persecuted and hated for them.

I don't hate anyone for their opinions but i have been subject to some bad attitudes simply because of how i think.

Reply 38

favh

Most people have no need for moral courage, as they really do have the same morals as the vast bulk of society, or simply never think about such things.

Reply 39

OP