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    well i dont see anything wrong with alice really. i empathise with the her brother who gets ignored while the older siblings and mum argue!
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    I didn't grow up in appalling conditions like Natalie has. Yet - I know people between me and her who are less well off than me but more than her. Do they have to be grateful? Hell, do I? Where do you set your arbitrary line saying where people have to be grateful for being born into wealth and people don't?

    Because if you took the world on an entire line then Natalie would be very grateful indeed. This is not splitting hairs. Does she not have free education (up to the age of 15, in her case) - or free healthcare? Or free money? At least some job prospects? Clean water? A place to sleep? Enough money for food and cigarettes and alcohol? Does she live in fear of being killed for her race or religion every day?

    Do you think the majority of the world has that? This is not splitting hairs; it is remarkable that you think national borders come into this.
    the massive huge point which has gone over your head. ALICE was the one doing all the complaining. Natalie wasnt the ungrateful one.
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    (Original post by Bluelight)
    Yes! its preferable if they are grateful than if they are not, if they assume the latter then its going to look bad on them, think thats fair price to pay for being born into wealth. Arbitarily is possibly the worst word you could use, because as that programme showed the consequences of wealth on the same street were anything but arbitary.
    I said nothing about the consequences of the street - I was talking about the boundary you used to decide between them which is most certainly arbitrary.

    (Original post by Bluelight)
    Don't know if you are playing devils advocate or are geuinely such an inconsiderate person, looking at your profile though one things for certain, im immensely grateful im not some tory gone wrong.
    I lold.
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    (Original post by berryfantastic)
    i think if my dad had been shot, my mum got depressed, my family had no money and my brother slept on the floor, id be a bit angry at life.

    the rich one "they can all die for i care" and "i couldnt bear sending my kids to state school" was hugely irritating, more than i can put into words, and i dont think her 'redemption' at the end was genuine, at all.

    that natalie went into her house and was like, oh your kitchen and garden are lovely...and alices parents ignore her and follow her about so she doesnt steal anything?
    Haha, not only that, the comment "It's a bit small though" was particularly fitting.
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    (Original post by Bluelight)
    the massive huge point which has gone over your head. ALICE was the one doing all the complaining. Natalie wasnt the ungrateful one.
    I'm well aware of that - which is why as far as I'm aware I haven't criticised Natalie at all.
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    (Original post by KwungSun)
    Of course Natalie is better off than your average Ethiopean but that is a completely unreasonable reference group to use. Natalie and Alice both carry British passports and fall under the jurisdiction of the British government. In theory both are guaranteed equal opportunities in Britain and the EU by law. Yet somehow one has ended up at the top and the other at the bottom of this food chain. Alice leads a life of luxury relative to the average Briton whereas Natalie leads one of privation. That can be the only meaningful comparison here.
    So if this program had focused on the richest person in Britain compared to the poorest person in North Korea then you would have not applied the same standards to that pair of people as you do to this pair? It doesn't matter where they are from - it's the principle that you are suggesting that is what I'm contending. Presumably you would think the same thing if you were French or Russian or American or Botswanan and there was a program aired in those countries based on the same scenario.
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    (Original post by footballcrazy12)
    she won't regret anything because she's got so much money, if i was in her position :woo: but i wouldn't be as arrogant as her :mad:
    What, just like Alice saying that if she was on the other side of the fence(ie. poor) she would work her way into richness? It's easy to say things like that when you have neither experience nor perspective.
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    lol too many parvenus? ok, do u believe in superiority of the aristocrats then? and not the new rich?
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    I said nothing about the consequences of the street - I was talking about the boundary you used to decide between them which is most certainly arbitrary.

    I lold.
    I lold at how much your profile pic reminded me of steven hawking.
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    (Original post by piehead)
    lol too many parvenus? ok, do u believe in superiority of the aristocrats then? and not the new rich?
    lol listen, I believe that it is not a coincidence that I prefer people born into wealth than people born into poverty. In my view they are more interesting, they talk properly, and they have better upbringings. I am aware that this is not the overall case by a long shot but I frankly don't give a ****.
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    (Original post by Bluelight)
    I lold at how much your profile pic reminded me of steven hawking.
    LOL. Is someone a little annoyed that other people refuse to accept their reverse classism? I mean ok, you can take your rage out over the internet - tell you what, you can PM or email me with a hate mail if you like so you don't get warned here, I won't report you, I find it hilarious.
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    (Original post by Toffee_Kid)
    Ugh, the rich girl is so amazingly ignorant - it's hard to believe that her parents paid for her education and yet she cannot even exercise thought, or take into account that what she says may have consequenses. She really needs a good walloping, not only for sh***ing on pretty much everyone with her stuck up and plain old stupid attitude, but also for ruining all that people from private schools have done to eradicate thier 'im in an ignorant bubble of me and money and cash and me' stereotype.

    The poor kid was living in bad circumstances, however I felt that she was using them as an excuse for her behaviour and the state of her life a little too much - yes, you're poor and you did badly in your GCSE's, but that's really no excuse to not try and do something about it - a part time college course, part time job.... (these were unemntioned, however I feel that if she were doing these things we would have probably been told).
    Again, easy for you to say. Try being in a position where you have nothing, you've never had anything, you're seen as a piece of **** by all of society that matters(ie. people who are responsible for giving people jobs - people just like Alice's Mum) and see if it's that easy. Do you think Natalie seemed like the kind of person with lots of self-confidence and "get-up-and-go"? More importantly, do you think she had the right kind of upbringing and life experience to make her that self-confident, "go-getter"? I sure as hell don't.
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    So if this program had focused on the richest person in Britain compared to the poorest person in North Korea then you would have not applied the same standards to that pair of people as you do to this pair? It doesn't matter where they are from - it's the principle that you are suggesting that is what I'm contending. Presumably you would think the same thing if you were French or Russian or American or Botswanan and there was a program aired in those countries based on the same scenario.
    You're just making the example more extreme so yes of course I would apply the same standards, a rich Briton versus a poor Korean is not a very interesting case. What I am saying is that it is little more than pedantry to rationalise down to statements like "everyone who has >0 wealth should be grateful". Natalie might well be grateful that she is richer than many Africans, but she lives in a country that could in theory offer her so much more yet has for whatever reasons failed to do so. That is the salient point. Natalie and Alice are equals before British law and enjoy the same freedoms and opportunities. Natalie is poor and Alice is not. Alice has been rewarded by the same system that screwed Natalie.
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    (Original post by KwungSun)
    Natalie might well be grateful that she is richer than many Africans, but she lives in a country that could in theory offer her so much more yet has for whatever reasons failed to do so. That is the salient point.
    I accept that, but the two are unconnected. I'm not criticising her - I don't believe I have done that. I certainly couldn't manage in her position. I'm criticising the way in which you and the people who agree with you conduct your philanthropy.
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    obviously rich people have better upbringings, and can be educated to speak nicely and talk about interesting things. im not asking if you would prefer being rich than poor. i was asking if you believe in superiority of wealthy people, which you obviously do but are too much of a pussy to say it 4 some reason, if you really dont give a **** admit you're a snob and we can 4get about trying to show you how outdated your ideas are
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    (Original post by piehead)
    obviously rich people have better upbringings, and can be educated to speak nicely and talk about interesting things. im not asking if you would prefer being rich than poor. i was asking if you believe in superiority of wealthy people, which you obviously do but are too much of a pussy to say it 4 some reason, if you really dont give a **** admit you're a snob and we can 4get about trying to show you how outdated your ideas are
    Internet is srs bsns?

    I already told you I don't believe in superiority of wealthy people because there are many wealthy people who still act like poor people. What precisely are you trying to get me to say? I'm not part of any aristocracy. I'm not part of any old money groups. I just behave (economically) accordingly to my wealth.
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    LOL. Is someone a little annoyed that other people refuse to accept their reverse classism?
    You are too deluded to be true. Class isnt the issue, not everyone is out to get the rich you know. Im happy for them to have their money and Id probably vote conservative to be honest. I just ask they have an iota of decency.
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    (Original post by Bluelight)
    You are too deluded to be true.
    I like to exaggerate, just a little, from time to time. Thanks for reminding me why.

    P.S. that doesn't mean I'm going back on anything I said on this thread.

    (Original post by Bluelight)
    Class isnt the issue, not everyone is out to get the rich you know. Im happy for them to have their money and Id probably vote conservative to be honest. I just ask they have an iota of decency.
    From the way you have expressed yourself - you haven't asked, you've demanded. I think all people ought to behave decently regardless of class, race, or sex. I think the amount of working class people who behave in an indecent manner far outweighs that of middle-class people - but, I could be wrong.
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    I accept that, but the two are unconnected. I'm not criticising her - I don't believe I have done that. I certainly couldn't manage in her position. I'm criticising the way in which you and the people who agree with you conduct your philanthropy.
    What philanthropy? I'm not saying one is morally superior to the other or that rich people are bad and/or don't deserve their wealth. The point is that Alice has done absolutely nothing to arrive at her current situation. She has had the good fortune of being born into a family that was in turn favoured by circumstance, yet feels that everyone who is not as well off as her is "lazy" (ignoring of course the fact that if everyone were as well off as her she would cease to be "upper middle class" ).
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    (Original post by Bluelight)
    dont be such a simple plebian, as the programme demonstrated, money is as much a product of cricumstance as it is hard work, they should be grateful they had the foot up in life they did. Not everything is about working hard and getting rewards, do you honestly think if Natalie and Alice put in the same amount of effort in something they'd reap the same rewards.
    Completely agree. The only thing that programme highlighted is how the wealth and class of the family you're born into has direct consequences on your ultimate "success" in life. It sounds obvious but ignorant little pricks all around who say things like "You don't have to be like your parents" or "You could just work harder" or "You can break the class divides" don't have the first clue.

    Obviously, they've picked two people who are polar opposites in terms of wealth so as to pronounce the differences, but ultimately all the programme also ended up highlighting was that at the end of the day we are all just people, rich people, poor people, we're all the same. It's just a shame that such prejudice exists in our society. Classism and wealthism are as big a problem as racism in this country.
 
 
 
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