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Original post by Skybird
Why is it that Asian countries like China, Japan and South Korea consistently outperform us in mathematical assessment ? What are we doing wrong in the teaching of Maths in the UK ? We have many talented mathematicians in the UK, what's going wrong ?
UK is one of the only countries which doesn't require school students to study maths till aged 18. There are several reasons, but making kids do some sort of maths (not to a-level standard) till 18 is essentially an open goal when it comes to improving STEM education.
Because those countries value their education and social mobility, whereas, in the UK, anything above the bare minimum for ordinary people is a bonus. Maths isn't mandatory here and we have extreme attainment gaps. It's a crab in a bucket mentality where anyone trying to better themselves and get out of poverty via means of education is dragged back down. What reasonable use is someone going to have for Maths? Why would they even bother knowing they will never afford uni? Doesn't help that our schools and curriculum are utter garbage too. Hard to learn maths when no one takes it seriously and a giant slab of cheap RAAC concrete falls on your head.
Original post by Skybird
Why is it that Asian countries like China, Japan and South Korea consistently outperform us in mathematical assessment ? What are we doing wrong in the teaching of Maths in the UK ? We have many talented mathematicians in the UK, what's going wrong ?
It is a fair question and one that was worth an episode of More or Less on
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mlxhv
Something to do with the fact that many countries in Asia teach their kids the curriculum tested by the Pisa tests so naturally if a school in China or Korea is picked they know exactly how to do well in that test and thus win victory for their country.
In the UK our curriculum is independent of the Pisa tests. In addition, there is more of an emphasis on problem solving and skill based maths compared to the Asian teaching methods where students have little autonomy or agency over their learning and teacher says, student does.
For me though, the outcome should not be on which group of students can best sit a tests, but which group of students are free thinkers, curious and poses the skills required to action their curiosity and learn for learning's sake. Surely there is more to maths than being a skill required to take a test?
Original post by Skybird
Why is it that Asian countries like China, Japan and South Korea consistently outperform us in mathematical assessment ? What are we doing wrong in the teaching of Maths in the UK ? We have many talented mathematicians in the UK, what's going wrong ?
These countries actually select schools for the PISA tests - in the UK the schools are chosen at random. One year the worst perfomring school in our LA was chosen - they are not comparing like with like.
In fact, teachers from China visited my friend's school to see why our students are so much better at problem solving. If you really delve into the PISA reports only the 'negaitve towards UK' stuff ever gets reported.
Original post by BenRyan99
UK is one of the only countries which doesn't require school students to study maths till aged 18. There are several reasons, but making kids do some sort of maths (not to a-level standard) till 18 is essentially an open goal when it comes to improving STEM education.
Where are the teachers going to come from to do this? School struggle to get good Maths teachers as it is.
Original post by Skybird
Why is it that Asian countries like China, Japan and South Korea consistently outperform us in mathematical assessment ? What are we doing wrong in the teaching of Maths in the UK ? We have many talented mathematicians in the UK, what's going wrong ?
The answer is pressure to perform and doing perfomance controls permanently. Hardly private or individual life and they just learn for exams and tests. Don't think that this way of education is worth copying.
Original post by Muttley79
Where are the teachers going to come from to do this? School struggle to get good Maths teachers as it is.
I would definitely be in favour of raising the funding level for STEM departments in state schools. I think if primary and secondary education quality was a priority for a government, you could probably put the right amount of resources in to train enough teachers to expand STEM education in schools by the end of the decade
Original post by gjd800
If you saw the amount of depressed, burnt out, suicidal Chinese maths whizkids that I see in a week, you'd wonder if the Asian model is worth it at all.
Not only in China, but also in Japan and South Korea. And it goes on in working life. The society is everything, the individuals nothing in countries like these. That is why I would never accept this model like you.
Original post by gjd800
If you saw the amount of depressed, burnt out, suicidal Chinese maths whizkids that I see in a week, you'd wonder if the Asian model is worth it at all.
I may be in the minority here, but we need a system like this. Our country is falling apart and our education is dire at best. Scottish schools have the highest attainment gap between rich and poor students. We're going to end up with a repeat of the '80s with a generation of thick, poor, unemployed people who can't function in the modern world.
Original post by ReeseJamPiece
I may be in the minority here, but we need a system like this. Our country is falling apart and our education is dire at best. Scottish schools have the highest attainment gap between rich and poor students. We're going to end up with a repeat of the '80s with a generation of thick, poor, unemployed people who can't function in the modern world.
No, we don't. There are better ways to do it if only those in power cared to pay any attention.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by gjd800
No, we don't. There are better ways to do it if only those in power cared to pay any attention.
They don't, and likely never will. Education is a commodity to them rather than a right. The UK doesn't have the same work-focused culture and we are far too apathetic when it comes to poverty and poor attainment. This extends beyond education, our towns are decaying with poor infrastructure. Nothing is working the way it should.
Original post by ReeseJamPiece
I may be in the minority here, but we need a system like this. Our country is falling apart and our education is dire at best. Scottish schools have the highest attainment gap between rich and poor students. We're going to end up with a repeat of the '80s with a generation of thick, poor, unemployed people who can't function in the modern world.
I would rather copy the Scandinavian model of education. In contrast to the Asian ones, the Scandinavians don't regard education as an economic, but also as an individual aspect of society and as an important thing to strengthen the mind skills for critical thinking and deduction. I doubt that these important skills are taught by learning from days to night how to pass in an exam and in a test best.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by Kallisto
I would rather copy the Scandinavian model of education. In contrast to the Asian ones, the Scandinavians don't regard education as an economic, but also as an individual aspect of society and as an important thing to strengthen the mind skills for critical thinking and deduction. I doubt that these important skills are taught by learning from days to night how to pass in an exam and in a test best.
My friend is from Finland and he always praises the education there. I think we need a blend of both. Every stereotype has truth, we are being outdone in every metric by East Asian countries from education to basic infrastructure. I agree it shouldn't be an exam-focused 9-9-5 work culture like it is there but our standards are way, way too low.
Original post by Skybird
Why is it that Asian countries like China, Japan and South Korea consistently outperform us in mathematical assessment ? What are we doing wrong in the teaching of Maths in the UK ? We have many talented mathematicians in the UK, what's going wrong ?
All these countries have rigorous educational system. They focus and emphasis Foundational subjects like mathematics.
Original post by BenRyan99
UK is one of the only countries which doesn't require school students to study maths till aged 18. There are several reasons, but making kids do some sort of maths (not to a-level standard) till 18 is essentially an open goal when it comes to improving STEM education.
Yes other than England (so not even the rest of the UK here as education is only mandatory until 16 years old AFAIK), I can't think of a single other nation where you can drop Maths, English and Science all simultaneously before the legal school-leaving age (without needing to go down a non-academic route/drop out). So could theoretically do my GCSEs, then do A-levels (go down the academic route) in say psychology, languages and sociology (so I've dropped Maths, English and Science before the English legal school-leaving age) and apply for a languages degree for university. I can't think of another nation where you would be able to reproduce this scenario before reaching the legal school-leaving age/before you turn 18 years old if you're wanting to go down the academic route (university).
Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it does make you wonder.
(edited 2 months ago)
Original post by ReeseJamPiece
Because those countries value their education and social mobility, whereas, in the UK, anything above the bare minimum for ordinary people is a bonus. Maths isn't mandatory here and we have extreme attainment gaps. It's a crab in a bucket mentality where anyone trying to better themselves and get out of poverty via means of education is dragged back down. What reasonable use is someone going to have for Maths? Why would they even bother knowing they will never afford uni? Doesn't help that our schools and curriculum are utter garbage too. Hard to learn maths when no one takes it seriously and a giant slab of cheap RAAC concrete falls on your head.
Not sure I'd agree that South Korea and Japan value social mobility. That's a significant claim that I don't think tallies with the political realities of contemporary Japan certainly, and from what I understand South Korea either. I gather in both elitism is well baked into the social structure of the countries and there seems to be limited political will to change that substantially.
Based on my understand with China I think the notion of social mobility there is very different than in the UK anyway and it's harder to compare perhaps.
Original post by ReeseJamPiece
They don't, and likely never will. Education is a commodity to them rather than a right. The UK doesn't have the same work-focused culture and we are far too apathetic when it comes to poverty and poor attainment. This extends beyond education, our towns are decaying with poor infrastructure. Nothing is working the way it should.
This specifically frames poverty as a personal moral failure due to "apathy" and not a systemic failure of social policy on the part of the state, and this is the underlying issue with your purported analysis. You can't just make people do more complex maths out of the blue and expect this to change deeply entrenched structural barriers and limited social services and safety nets for those most vulnerable people in society.
You need to start with the latter issues then once those are addressed, you can look at sweeping 16-19 education policy revisions. As otherwise you're just trying to build on a foundation made of sand. Students won't have had the necessary skills developed from primary age onwards, and their families won't have had the necessary social and welfare support provided to enable them to support their children at home while school aged and enable those children in turn to succeed in school and education beyond school.
Original post by Skybird
Why is it that Asian countries like China, Japan and South Korea consistently outperform us in mathematical assessment ? What are we doing wrong in the teaching of Maths in the UK ? We have many talented mathematicians in the UK, what's going wrong ?
I wouldn't say it is because of the "pressure" (Honestly, I think this Asian "pressure" seems to be stereotyped as many of my friends aren't pressured at all).
Moreover, many of my Asian friends + myself have gotten 9s for math exams even though we don't study for it - so I would conclude it is probably because we have learnt it from a younger age than in the UK. However, A-level maths, on the other hand, is something I've seen my older Asian friends struggle with.
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