2 in 5 teachers work 26 hours for free each week
A TUC survey finds teaching staff perform the most unpaid overtime of any profession, losing out on £15,000 a year each; 2 in 5 teachers are working 26 hours unpaid overtime on a weekly basis
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/23/daylight-robbery-two-in-five-uk-teachers-work-26-hours-for-free-each-week
If you're at school, do you see teachers who do this?
How do you feel about it?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/23/daylight-robbery-two-in-five-uk-teachers-work-26-hours-for-free-each-week
If you're at school, do you see teachers who do this?
How do you feel about it?
Scroll to see replies
Probably why I meet so many ex-teachers working in non-teaching roles in HE.
Original post by 04MR17
A TUC survey finds teaching staff perform the most unpaid overtime of any profession, losing out on £15,000 a year each; 2 in 5 teachers are working 26 hours unpaid overtime on a weekly basis
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/23/daylight-robbery-two-in-five-uk-teachers-work-26-hours-for-free-each-week
If you're at school, do you see teachers who do this?
How do you feel about it?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/23/daylight-robbery-two-in-five-uk-teachers-work-26-hours-for-free-each-week
If you're at school, do you see teachers who do this?
How do you feel about it?
Original post by Quady
Pretty daft innit. They should just go home.
Many of the hours included are spent at home, working.
Original post by 04MR17
A TUC survey finds teaching staff perform the most unpaid overtime of any profession, losing out on £15,000 a year each; 2 in 5 teachers are working 26 hours unpaid overtime on a weekly basis
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/23/daylight-robbery-two-in-five-uk-teachers-work-26-hours-for-free-each-week
If you're at school, do you see teachers who do this?
How do you feel about it?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/feb/23/daylight-robbery-two-in-five-uk-teachers-work-26-hours-for-free-each-week
If you're at school, do you see teachers who do this?
How do you feel about it?
Original post by BenRyan99
I'm sure they're broadly correct. But would you expect the Trade Union Council to come to a conclusion other than one which supports its members (i.e. teachers)?
The Department of Education conducts it's own annual workload analysis. The results don't deviate from the TUC report.
In fact, at a quick glance, the TUC seem to have used ONS data than their own.
Original post by Gazpacho.
The Department of Education conducts it's own annual workload analysis. The results don't deviate from the TUC report.
In fact, at a quick glance, the TUC seem to have used ONS data than their own.
In fact, at a quick glance, the TUC seem to have used ONS data than their own.
My point was more about how much one can trust the research from overtly political organizations who have big conflicts of interest, when forming views on certain areas. And it's not just whether x piece of research is correct/incorrect, more that you simply can't rely on certain organisation for balanced views, which makes them less useful for reading if you're time constrained
Original post by BenRyan99
Hence why I said I'm sure it's broadly correct.
My point was more about how much one can trust the research from overtly political organizations who have big conflicts of interest, when forming views on certain areas. And it's not just whether x piece of research is correct/incorrect, more that you simply can't rely on certain organisation for balanced views, which makes them less useful for reading if you're time constrained
My point was more about how much one can trust the research from overtly political organizations who have big conflicts of interest, when forming views on certain areas. And it's not just whether x piece of research is correct/incorrect, more that you simply can't rely on certain organisation for balanced views, which makes them less useful for reading if you're time constrained
Point taken in a broad sense.
However, in this case, successive Education Secretaries, Schools Ministers and the DofE don't disagree with the TUC that there is excessive workload within the teaching profession, with the DofE citing workload as a significant factor in recruitment and retention. There is an ongoing Parliamentary inquiry into teacher recruitment/retention which will likely reiterate this point. You'll find identical stances from policy/research groups like the EPI and IOE. This is very much a consensus across the board on this issue. The problem is DofE and school policies to reduce workload have been largely ineffective.
Original post by Gazpacho.
Point taken in a broad sense.
However, in this case, successive Education Secretaries, Schools Ministers and the DofE don't disagree with the TUC that there is excessive workload within the teaching profession, with the DofE citing workload as a significant factor in recruitment and retention. There is an ongoing Parliamentary inquiry into teacher recruitment/retention which will likely reiterate this point. You'll find identical stances from policy/research groups like the EPI and IOE. This is very much a consensus across the board on this issue. The problem is DofE and school policies to reduce workload have been largely ineffective.
However, in this case, successive Education Secretaries, Schools Ministers and the DofE don't disagree with the TUC that there is excessive workload within the teaching profession, with the DofE citing workload as a significant factor in recruitment and retention. There is an ongoing Parliamentary inquiry into teacher recruitment/retention which will likely reiterate this point. You'll find identical stances from policy/research groups like the EPI and IOE. This is very much a consensus across the board on this issue. The problem is DofE and school policies to reduce workload have been largely ineffective.
And if you can guess the conclusion of an organization's 'rigorous' research before it's published every single time.... makes you question how useful their research is vs less political organizations such as the IoE which you use as an example and I think are pretty good. I just don't really get what research from the TUC really adds beyond that of less partisan organizations (beyond trying to make them seem more credible than they are).
(edited 10 months ago)
Original post by BenRyan99
I guess my point is more that would you ever expect the TUC to come to a different conclusion, regardless whether they're correct/incorrect on this specific issue? Again, I'm not disagreeing with the conclusions on this specific issue.
And if you can guess the conclusion of an organization's 'rigorous' research before it's published every single time.... makes you question how useful their research is vs less political organizations such as the IoE which you use as an example and I think are pretty good. I just don't really get what research from the TUC really adds beyond that of less partisan organizations (beyond trying to make them seem more credible than they are).
And if you can guess the conclusion of an organization's 'rigorous' research before it's published every single time.... makes you question how useful their research is vs less political organizations such as the IoE which you use as an example and I think are pretty good. I just don't really get what research from the TUC really adds beyond that of less partisan organizations (beyond trying to make them seem more credible than they are).
What should be done about it?
Original post by BenRyan99
I guess my point is more that would you ever expect the TUC to come to a different conclusion, regardless whether they're correct/incorrect on this specific issue? Again, I'm not disagreeing with the conclusions on this specific issue.
And if you can guess the conclusion of an organization's 'rigorous' research before it's published every single time.... makes you question how useful their research is vs less political organizations such as the IoE which you use as an example and I think are pretty good. I just don't really get what research from the TUC really adds beyond that of less partisan organizations (beyond trying to make them seem more credible than they are).
And if you can guess the conclusion of an organization's 'rigorous' research before it's published every single time.... makes you question how useful their research is vs less political organizations such as the IoE which you use as an example and I think are pretty good. I just don't really get what research from the TUC really adds beyond that of less partisan organizations (beyond trying to make them seem more credible than they are).
The point of the article, this thread, any other discussions on this topic is not that the TUC is the one drawing the conclusion.
The figures are from the ONS.
The point of the article, this thread and any other discussions on the topic is plainly that a large number of unpaid hours are being worked by teachers. This is common knowledge, though perhaps the scale of this issue is not fully known. Let me ask you: did the numbers surprise you?
Original post by 04MR17
The point of the article, this thread, any other discussions on this topic is not that the TUC is the one drawing the conclusion.
The figures are from the ONS.
The point of the article, this thread and any other discussions on the topic is plainly that a large number of unpaid hours are being worked by teachers. This is common knowledge, though perhaps the scale of this issue is not fully known. Let me ask you: did the numbers surprise you?
The figures are from the ONS.
The point of the article, this thread and any other discussions on the topic is plainly that a large number of unpaid hours are being worked by teachers. This is common knowledge, though perhaps the scale of this issue is not fully known. Let me ask you: did the numbers surprise you?
As to whether the numbers surprised me, not particularly, I think it's generally well known that teaching can require extra hours to keep up with all the lesson planning and marking. Equally, everyone I work with probably does at least 5-8hrs of overtime per weekday alone, when compared with what's actually strictly in our contracts. The difference is, we work in a competitive field so we're appropriately compensated for the extra hours (though I appreciate my field isn't representative of the average workers so I don't draw too many conclusions from that).
If you don't work in a very competitive field (i.e. teaching), you really need an effective and strong union to counter these forces (especially in the public sector), which evidently isn't the case currently as shown by the findings. I'm certainly not blaming teachers at all.
(edited 10 months ago)
One of the reasons (not the original reason though) why I no longer want to be a teacher (a part of me wanted to make teach in a primary school but I refuse to do a job where I need to do more work when I come home).
Original post by 04MR17
Many of the hours included are spent at home, working.
Ah ok, so like cleaning the car and washin/drying clothes that kinda thing.
This sounds like nonsense to me, and a lot of people grossly exaggerating their self-reporting.
27 hours is very very difficult to find in a week. It equates to more than 5 hours per working day, or 3 hours per working day plus 6 hours per day on weekends. That is absolutely not happening, and definitely not with 4/10 teachers. I used to live with teachers and if I saw them do an hour a day that would be a lot.
The whole trope of marking work at home might be a thing - but generally that isn't 100% concentration. They're usually watching a film or TV. Is that really a fair way to gauge working time? You also sometimes get highly highly motivated people in all professions who decide to do additional work at home because they're dedicated or perfectionists or whatever - that can't be realistically counted.
27 hours is very very difficult to find in a week. It equates to more than 5 hours per working day, or 3 hours per working day plus 6 hours per day on weekends. That is absolutely not happening, and definitely not with 4/10 teachers. I used to live with teachers and if I saw them do an hour a day that would be a lot.
The whole trope of marking work at home might be a thing - but generally that isn't 100% concentration. They're usually watching a film or TV. Is that really a fair way to gauge working time? You also sometimes get highly highly motivated people in all professions who decide to do additional work at home because they're dedicated or perfectionists or whatever - that can't be realistically counted.
Original post by Trinculo
This sounds like nonsense to me, and a lot of people grossly exaggerating their self-reporting.
27 hours is very very difficult to find in a week. It equates to more than 5 hours per working day, or 3 hours per working day plus 6 hours per day on weekends. That is absolutely not happening, and definitely not with 4/10 teachers. I used to live with teachers and if I saw them do an hour a day that would be a lot.
The whole trope of marking work at home might be a thing - but generally that isn't 100% concentration. They're usually watching a film or TV. Is that really a fair way to gauge working time? You also sometimes get highly highly motivated people in all professions who decide to do additional work at home because they're dedicated or perfectionists or whatever - that can't be realistically counted.
27 hours is very very difficult to find in a week. It equates to more than 5 hours per working day, or 3 hours per working day plus 6 hours per day on weekends. That is absolutely not happening, and definitely not with 4/10 teachers. I used to live with teachers and if I saw them do an hour a day that would be a lot.
The whole trope of marking work at home might be a thing - but generally that isn't 100% concentration. They're usually watching a film or TV. Is that really a fair way to gauge working time? You also sometimes get highly highly motivated people in all professions who decide to do additional work at home because they're dedicated or perfectionists or whatever - that can't be realistically counted.
Last night I spent 2 hours lesson planning, tonight I'm doing similar. That way my non teaching hours in school are spent marking ahead of parents evening next week. At weekends it's usually more than 6 hours for me.
Can I just confirm that you are basing your post on the experience of living with 1 teacher?
Your last comment I'm a little bit lost on - you don't count people that work from home who want to? What does that leave you with? Forced labour?
Original post by 04MR17
Last night I spent 2 hours lesson planning, tonight I'm doing similar. That way my non teaching hours in school are spent marking ahead of parents evening next week. At weekends it's usually more than 6 hours for me.
Can I just confirm that you are basing your post on the experience of living with 1 teacher?
Your last comment I'm a little bit lost on - you don't count people that work from home who want to? What does that leave you with? Forced labour?
Can I just confirm that you are basing your post on the experience of living with 1 teacher?
Your last comment I'm a little bit lost on - you don't count people that work from home who want to? What does that leave you with? Forced labour?
I can't understand what it is that you can't understand.
If a person of any profession wants to go above and beyond because that drive is in their personality - then that cannot be counted as "work time". That is absurd.
A lot of people want to make their work product better, and beyond what is possible in their base hours. The idea that this constitutes "forced labour" is something so ridiculous that only a teacher could have come up with it.
Let's say the drama teacher is running a school production. The time he has allotted in normal work hours will allow for a mediocre performance. He wants better, so he works on it in his own time and delivers better. That is entirely down to him because he's motivated to do so. He can't present an overtime bill, and he can't pretend that he was forced into it.
Similarly, people of all professions regularly work additionally for no money because they want to get ahead, they want to impress someone or just because they are motivated to do so. Sometimes I'd admire that, and in some cases I'd think it's not such a good idea.
Original post by Trinculo
I can't understand what it is that you can't understand.
If a person of any profession wants to go above and beyond because that drive is in their personality - then that cannot be counted as "work time". That is absurd.
A lot of people want to make their work product better, and beyond what is possible in their base hours. The idea that this constitutes "forced labour" is something so ridiculous that only a teacher could have come up with it.
Let's say the drama teacher is running a school production. The time he has allotted in normal work hours will allow for a mediocre performance. He wants better, so he works on it in his own time and delivers better. That is entirely down to him because he's motivated to do so. He can't present an overtime bill, and he can't pretend that he was forced into it.
Similarly, people of all professions regularly work additionally for no money because they want to get ahead, they want to impress someone or just because they are motivated to do so. Sometimes I'd admire that, and in some cases I'd think it's not such a good idea.
If a person of any profession wants to go above and beyond because that drive is in their personality - then that cannot be counted as "work time". That is absurd.
A lot of people want to make their work product better, and beyond what is possible in their base hours. The idea that this constitutes "forced labour" is something so ridiculous that only a teacher could have come up with it.
Let's say the drama teacher is running a school production. The time he has allotted in normal work hours will allow for a mediocre performance. He wants better, so he works on it in his own time and delivers better. That is entirely down to him because he's motivated to do so. He can't present an overtime bill, and he can't pretend that he was forced into it.
Similarly, people of all professions regularly work additionally for no money because they want to get ahead, they want to impress someone or just because they are motivated to do so. Sometimes I'd admire that, and in some cases I'd think it's not such a good idea.
I find myself disagreeing with you then. We're talking about the education of young people, if society wants young people to be educated well then they need to be given good quality lessons, which ought to be planned and delivered well, with effective feedback on their work - the first one (planning) takes time, the second (delivery) takes experience and a lot of energy and the third (feedback ie marking) takes time as well.
Now I'll meet you at the fact that lots of teachers do mark with something else on in the background. A number of my colleagues bring marking to children's birthday parties when taking their own child to them.
I'd argue that "above and beyond" is what the majority of teachers do, in part because they choose to but also in part because a standard of exam results is expected from their pupils based on data from when they were 11. If pupils don't meet their target grades a lot of teachers in a lot of schools are judged on this by leadership, in turn the leadership are judged on the school's results by Ofsted. For some pupils, in order to meet that expectation from managers and the inspectorate it requires an awful lot of time and effort.
You might argue that this shouldn't be the case and the pupils should be allowed to make their own choices with how much effort they put into their qualifications and I agree with you Trinculo. But this is the system we have and the working hours are more the result of that, in my view, than simply the generous nature of teachers wanting to go beyond what's expected.
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