The Student Room Group

Is the Scottish system geared toward underachievers?

A quick note - I've had quite a bit of flak for posting this, so I'd like to say that I was trying to start a debate, not attack the Scots.

It seems that, in the Scottish system, there's a tilt towards doing subjects such as media studies and hospitality (let's face it, those are not academic subjects). There seems to be a shift away from academia, compared to the English system. The academic subjects themselves are, I find, easier in Scotland. To me, this comes over as gearing the system towards underachievers.

Am I alone in this, or does anyone agree?
(edited 12 years ago)

Scroll to see replies

Reply 1
Original post by Holly M Gray
It seems that, in the Scottish system, there's a tilt towards doing subjects such as media studies and hospitality (let's face it, those are not academic subjects). There seems to be a shift away from academia, compared to the English system. The academic subjects themselves are, I find, easier in Scotland. To me, this comes over as gearing the system towards underachievers.

Am I alone in this, or does anyone agree?



Biggest load of garbage i have ever read.

Lets look at the first thing you said. You say that most people are doing subjects such as hospitality, media studies etc. Tell me this, who on earth told you that?

In my own school, and others, these courses tend to have extremely limited places, ( media studies 5 people max in some situations ) and from experiencing different scottish schools it appears that a very small minority of students take hospitality courses. So how you think more people are taking these subjects? I will never know.

So now i've informed you that students are actually going away from these subjects, lets talk about how they're not academic subjects. Well in fact, why talk about why they're " not academic subjects " ? they are! Just because some courses involve alot of practical work ( hospitality ) it doesn't mean that there is no academics involved. In fact, there is alot of theory which takes place in the hospitality subject. ofcourse it is an academic subject, it involves alot of forward thinking, planning, management and problem solving, so it doesn't differ from the basic principles of academia.

Media studies, another you said is not academic....yet more nonsene. You're not going to sit there and tell me that historical studies, environmental studies etc are not academic subjects? Media studies falls into exactly the same category - you learn about the media profession, how things work, how to solve issues, how to do X Y & Z. Just as you would if you'd studied mathematics.


If you took the time to look at statistics before coming on here and offending many of us, then you would realise that the Scottish Education system is improving, with results in all science subjects increasing every year and more young people opting to continue studies in science subjects throughout their school life. Geared towards underachievers? Nonsene.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Inlineadam
Lets look at the first thing you said. You say that most people are doing subjects such as hospitality, media studies etc.


No, I didn't say that most people were doing them; I said that there was a tilt towards doing them, i.e. it was encouraged, and the faculty casts them as worth as much as more traditional academic subjects . Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough - thanks!


lets talk about how they're not academic subjects. Well in fact, why talk about why they're " not academic subjects " ? they are! Just because some courses involve alot of practical work ( hospitality ) it doesn't mean that there is no academics involved. In fact, there is alot of theory which takes place in the hospitality subject. ofcourse it is an academic subject, it involves alot of forward thinking, planning, management and problem solving, so it doesn't differ from the basic principles of academia. Media studies, another you said is not academic....yet more nonsene. You're not going to sit there and tell me that historical studies, environmental studies etc are not academic subjects? Media studies falls into exactly the same category - you learn about the media profession, how things work, how to solve issues, how to do X Y & Z. Just as you would if you'd studied mathematics.


By definition alone, they're not academics.

If you took the time to look at statistics before coming on here and offending many of us, then you would realise that the Scottish Education system is improving, with results in all science subjects increasing every year. Geared towards underachievers? Nonsene.


I've seen the statistics. How do rising results show that the system isn't geared towards underachievers? There's the possibility - though I don't believe it - that the exams are simply getting easier.

However, your post doesn't really deny anything I said - it simply attacks one example I used. I could've used any number of other examples...
Reply 3
Original post by Holly M Gray
No, I didn't say that most people were doing them; I said that there was a tilt towards doing them, i.e. it was encouraged, and the faculty casts them as worth as much as more traditional academic subjects . Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough - thanks!




By definition alone, they're not academics.



I've seen the statistics. How do rising results show that the system isn't geared towards underachievers? There's the possibility - though I don't believe it - that the exams are simply getting easier.

However, your post doesn't really deny anything I said - it simply attacks one example I used. I could've used any number of other examples...


A tilt towards something tends to suggest that there's an increase ( ie, more people are drawn to it ). I apologise if i miss-enterpreted it.

By definition, they are academics - highlighted by the things i pointed out.

Rising results cleary show that the education system is improving. WHat's difficult to understand about that?

And for the record, are you from England? You mentioned you find the scottish system easier.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 4
i took 5 highers- Maths, English and 3 sciences; 3 advanced highers- Maths and 2 sciences. My classes were full, no one makes anyone study specific subjects, people decide to do whatever they want.If people want to be underachievers, good luck to them.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Inlineadam
Rising results cleary show that the education system is improving. WHat's difficult to understand about that?


Rising results could show either that the teaching is getting better or that the tests are getting easier.

And for the record, are you from England? You mentioned you find the scottish system easier.


Yes, but I don't see how my nationality affects this... :confused:
Original post by damilola
i took 5 highers- Maths, English and 3 sciences; 3 advanced higher- Maths and 2 sciences. My classes were full, no one makes anyone study specific subjects, people decide to do whatever they want.If people want to be underachievers, good luck to them.


Perhaps I'm simply in a bad school. Thanks!
Higher Media Studies has a higher level of analysis than Higher English..
Original post by SFB
Are less academic pupils more likely to do hospitality or media studies? Yes, of course. It has to be better for people who have no talent for (or desire to do) academic subjects to do something more vocational and to leave school with some qualifications. this is also common in England.

Does this have any effect on the more academic students? No, of course not.


I agree with this - the point with that sentence was that there seem to be fewer academic students in the school I now go to in Scotland than there were in the school I went to in England.

As I said above, perhaps the issue simply is that I'm judging the entire Scottish system by one school - if so, sorry!
Original post by damilola
i took 5 highers- Maths, English and 3 sciences; 3 advanced higher- Maths and 2 sciences. My classes were full, no one makes anyone study specific subjects, people decide to do whatever they want.If people want to be underachievers, good luck to them.


Almost the same as me! 5 Highers, Maths, English, Chem, Bio, German, and Maths, Chem and Bio for Advanced Higher. Which sciences did you do for AH?

Original post by Holly M Gray
I agree with this - the point with that sentence was that there seem to be fewer academic students in the school I now go to in Scotland than there were in the school I went to in England.

As I said above, perhaps the issue simply is that I'm judging the entire Scottish system by one school - if so, sorry!


I won't lie, a lot of people at my school take media studies (I can hear the stuff they're doing when I'm in chemistry, their class is right above mine. It was Glee yesterday), and hospitality (constantly see people walking around with food) and they also have a subject in cake decorating, no lie. Loads of people take that as something that's less stressful than their other subjects. I wouldn't bother, why waste school time making cakes when your mum loves baking and you can come home to chocolate cake? However, there are still a lot of people who take the more "traditional" subjects. We have two AH Maths classes this year, and there were 2 AH Chemistry classes not long ago. The only subjects that suffer are the languages, but that's because some of the teachers aren't the most enthusiastic, and the school doesn't have that much of a problem with people dropping it in 3rd year, even though it's supposedly compulsory.

And as for the exams being easier....I sincerely hope you're saying that Highers are easier than A2's, which they are, no denying that. Higher's are more like AS's. But I don't want to have to get angry if you're suggesting that Advanced Highers are much easier than A2's. I'm doing three, as are several of my friends, and the only boy in my Biology class is doing four (all sciences). One uni I spoke to (not a Scottish one, in case you suggest it's biased) that Advanced Highers are supposed to be equivalent to one and a half A2's. They're damn hard! But since I've never done A2's, I can't reasonably compare. But I would say that it's more likely that they're both equal-ish in terms of difficulty.

Out of interest, are you doing Highers or Advanced Highers? Or a mix?
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Holly M Gray
Rising results could show either that the teaching is getting better or that the tests are getting easier.



Yes, but I don't see how my nationality affects this... :confused:


Having gone through about 10/15 years of exam papers during revision for exams, i can't say i found much difference in the level of questions.


I was curious to know if you had experience the english system.


I must ask; why do you say that people who don't do sciency subjects ( you refer to academic subjects ) underachievers?

Basically you have said that , for example, even if you get an A in your Advanced Higher Art, your an underachiever.

I wouldn't try debate that because it's what you said, but i'd like to know your reasoning behind it?

To be honest, some of the most successful people in the world, businessman, designers, sportsmen etc were not good at school. Does that make them under-achievers too?

It's not fair to brand those who are not naturally talented in Science subjects as being under-ahchievers. In fact, it's quite unfair.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by aspirinpharmacist
Almost the same as me! 5 Highers, Maths, English, Chem, Bio, German, and Maths, Chem and Bio for Advanced Higher.

I won't lie, a lot of people at my school take media studies (I can hear the stuff they're doing when I'm in chemistry, their class is right above mine), and hospitality (constantly see people walking around with food) and they also have a subject in cake decorating, no lie. Loads of people take that as something that's less stressful than their other subjects. I wouldn't bother, why waste school time making cakes when your mum loves baking and you can come home to chocolate cake? However, there are still a lot of people who take the more "traditional" subjects. We have two AH Maths classes this year, and there were 2 AH Chemistry classes not long ago. The only subjects that suffer are the languages, but that's because some of the teachers aren't the most enthusiastic, and the school doesn't have that much of a problem with people dropping it in 3rd year, even though it's supposedly compulsory.

And as for the exams being easier....I sincerely hope you're saying that Highers are easier than A2's, which they are, no denying that. Higher's are more like AS's. But I don't want to have to get angry if you're suggesting that Advanced Highers are much easier than A2's. I'm doing three, as are several of my friends, and the only boy in my Biology class is doing four (all sciences). One uni I spoke to (not a Scottish one, in case you suggest it's biased) that Advanced Highers are supposed to be equivalent to one and a half A2's. They're damn hard! But since I've never done A2's, I can't reasonably compare. But I would say that it's more likely that they're both equal-ish in terms of difficulty.


I haven't done Advanced Highers yet, but they do seem to be a big jump in difficulty from Highers - I'm still prepping for my standard grades, so maybe I haven't been in school for long enough to judge these things. My argument may, I admit, have turned from "Scottish schools are geared towards underachievers" to "that one school in England is better than this one school in Scotland", haha.
Reply 12
AS levels are easier than Highers and A2s are easier than Advanced Highers. Hell, if you go by the UCAS points tariff, they reckon it's harder to get a B at Higher than an A at AS.

You only have to look at the entrance requirements for maths at Oxford for example:

A-levels: A*A*A

Advanced Highers: AA/AAB


Original post by Holly M Gray
I haven't done Advanced Highers yet, but they do seem to be a big jump in difficulty from Highers - I'm still prepping for my standard grades, so maybe I haven't been in school for long enough to judge these things. My argument may, I admit, have turned from "Scottish schools are geared towards underachievers" to "that one school in England is better than this one school in Scotland", haha.

The Scottish exam system is much more brutal (no resits or anything like that, unless you want to do it over a year), no sitting an exam on a specific module, and the exams themselves are more difficult. They're definitely not geared towards underachievers, and you'd be a fool to think so.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 13
Original post by Holly M Gray
It seems that, in the Scottish system, there's a tilt towards doing subjects such as media studies and hospitality (let's face it, those are not academic subjects). There seems to be a shift away from academia, compared to the English system. The academic subjects themselves are, I find, easier in Scotland. To me, this comes over as gearing the system towards underachievers.

Am I alone in this, or does anyone agree?


Huh, are Scottish highers, not more difficult than Alevels ?
Original post by Holly M Gray
I haven't done Advanced Highers yet, but they do seem to be a big jump in difficulty from Highers - I'm still prepping for my standard grades, so maybe I haven't been in school for long enough to judge these things. My argument may, I admit, have turned from "Scottish schools are geared towards underachievers" to "that one school in England is better than this one school in Scotland", haha.


How do you find the scottish system easier if you haven't even sat any exams?:confused:

I'm not having a go by the way lol, just really interested in this topic.
Reply 15
Original post by Holly M Gray
I haven't done Advanced Highers yet, but they do seem to be a big jump in difficulty from Highers - I'm still prepping for my standard grades, so maybe I haven't been in school for long enough to judge these things. My argument may, I admit, have turned from "Scottish schools are geared towards underachievers" to "that one school in England is better than this one school in Scotland", haha.


Unless you are going to a private school in England, the schools here are not that great. At least, your prime minister is determined to improve the quality of your schools !!
(edited 12 years ago)
Its been quite a few years since I left school but whenever English students transferred during standard grades(or earlier) they were always shocked how difficult it was in fact there was people in 3rd/4th year who transferred and when they showed us their textbooks it was what we were doing when we first started high school!!!

Not saying English stuff is easier but Scottish stuff is harder than people think.
Reply 17
I don't know much about the Scottish school system, other than it must be similar to the English one in terms of standard because people flit between the borders very well on a variety of courses :')

Also, the Scottish accent is amazing! :smile:
Original post by drbluebox
Its been quite a few years since I left school but whenever English students transferred during standard grades(or earlier) they were always shocked how difficult it was in fact there was people in 3rd/4th year who transferred and when they showed us their textbooks it was what we were doing when we first started high school!!!

Not saying English stuff is easier but Scottish stuff is harder than people think.


Great point. A couple people ( english people ) were the same when they moved up here. " Top pupils " in England ended up in the lowest maths classes.
Reply 19
Original post by Holly M Gray
A quick note - I've had quite a bit of flak for posting this, so I'd like to say that I was trying to start a debate, not attack the Scots.

It seems that, in the Scottish system, there's a tilt towards doing subjects such as media studies and hospitality (let's face it, those are not academic subjects). There seems to be a shift away from academia, compared to the English system. The academic subjects themselves are, I find, easier in Scotland. To me, this comes over as gearing the system towards underachievers.

Am I alone in this, or does anyone agree?


This wasn't true in my school. If you look around a bit though, you could find out if it's true nationwide, and get some actual figures. As it is, we just have what people see themselves.


Original post by JordanR
AS levels are easier than Highers and A2s are easier than Advanced Highers. Hell, if you go by the UCAS points tariff, they reckon it's harder to get a B at Higher than an A at AS.

You only have to look at the entrance requirements for maths at Oxford for example:

A-levels: A*A*A

Advanced Highers: AA/AAB



This is a bit disingenious though, anybody getting through the Oxford interview I'd expect to have no difficulty getting 4 A's at advanced higher.

Quick Reply