Girl, 14 raped by two men on bus in UK
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Original post by Octopus_Garden
I believe in mitigating risk, yes. But there's a line between mitigating risk and being expected to abnormally limit your life.
I look both ways when I cross the road- that's mitigating risk. Being expected to give up evening classes, socialising, or possible employment in case of sexual assault is victim blaming.
It's also a foul attitude to have towards men. Implicit in the idea that women should stay indoors after dark, is the idea that good, kind, decent men morph into rapist-monsters after dark. They don't. Most men are good and kind all the time. A small minority of men are rapists all the time, constantly looking for an opportunity. As human beings, however, they want to justify their actions. Attitudes like "well, what was she doing out" allow them to do this.
One of my friends was raped at 7.30am on the way to the newsagent for her dad, before school. Is she more, or less to blame because of the time she was outside her house? The answer is that she would never be to blame. She did not hold herself down!
If you are staying in because of rapists, all you are doing is limiting your life, and making sure that the streets will be more dangerous for the women who have to go out that night. It's not preventing sexual assaults. It's diverting sexual assaults and then blaming the victims afterwards.
I look both ways when I cross the road- that's mitigating risk. Being expected to give up evening classes, socialising, or possible employment in case of sexual assault is victim blaming.
It's also a foul attitude to have towards men. Implicit in the idea that women should stay indoors after dark, is the idea that good, kind, decent men morph into rapist-monsters after dark. They don't. Most men are good and kind all the time. A small minority of men are rapists all the time, constantly looking for an opportunity. As human beings, however, they want to justify their actions. Attitudes like "well, what was she doing out" allow them to do this.
One of my friends was raped at 7.30am on the way to the newsagent for her dad, before school. Is she more, or less to blame because of the time she was outside her house? The answer is that she would never be to blame. She did not hold herself down!
If you are staying in because of rapists, all you are doing is limiting your life, and making sure that the streets will be more dangerous for the women who have to go out that night. It's not preventing sexual assaults. It's diverting sexual assaults and then blaming the victims afterwards.
My attitude isn't 'well, what was she doing out' but 'well, why did she go onto the upstairs of the bus without her friend and with only those two guys?' That was a stupid thing to do...
No-one would say being out at 7.30am was a stupid thing to go, and it just shows that all the risk mitigation in the world can't be sure to keep you safe (as I know too, though on a smaller scale)
So, I don't stay in because of rapists - but when I go out I make sure I am wearing something that means I can run if I need to, and have a phone with a full battery just in case.
Original post by WaceMindu
Because in our stupid society the bus driver probably would have been sued/convicted of assault for manhandling them back onto the bus and then kidnapping or keeping them against their will, because although they just raped a child...*sarcastic tone* you can't disobey their human rights...
Original post by Uncle Bulgaria
Unfortunately you are probably correct.
I have seen, several times, buses lock their doors and refuse to open when thieves were on the bus. There is also such thing as a citizen's arrest.
Criminal Law Act, 1967: This act gives everyone the authority to use "such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting (or assisting in) the lawful arrest of offenders, suspected offenders or persons unlawfully at large."
An arrest is "the taking or restraint of a person from his liberty in order that he shall be forthcoming to answer an alleged crime or offence." In Scotland a private citizen is entitled to arrest without warrant for a serious crime he has witnessed, or perhaps where he has information equivalent to personal observation, as where the fleeing criminal is pointed out to him by an eye witness.
All you have to do is tell them they are under arrest and then you are allowed to detain them. It is not necessary to use any particular phrases when informing them - you could simply say "I am not opening these doors, I am calling the police and you must wait until they arrive because you just been seen raping that girl". Everyday words explaining what is happening are all that is required. If it's not possible to explain to them because they are showing abusive or violent behaviour - then you don't even need to say until as soon as practicable afterwards. You can physically restrain them, but it is perfectly acceptable to not lay your hands on them if the situation allows (such as just locking the doors on the bus). They should be treated reasonably and their welfare and safe custody until the arrival of the police is your responsibility. You must not lose sight of the person, or leave them alone for any reason. There could be an escape attempt or the suspect, aggrieved at their detention and pending prosecution, could assault either yourself or any other person nearby.
Yes they could have. Once the police arrived and they explained what happened, displaying clearly reasonable grounds for detention - no action would be taken against them.
"Various sections of the public, particularly store detectives, security officers and door supervisors regularly use their powers of arrest in the course of crime prevention and detection, and to date there have been relatively few successful civil actions against them for unlawful arrest. Provided that discretion and common sense are used in deciding when to effect an arrest, and that when you are making the arrest you have reasonable grounds to suspect that the person is either committing or has committed an indictable offence, then you should not encounter too many problems." - SIA training book
Basically, detaining these men in this situation: entirely lawful and very reasonable. Using physical force to protect yourself and the other passengers if they got violent: also reasonable and lawful. Beating them senseless or torturing them before the police arrive: illegal and rightly so.
(edited 11 years ago)
What the **** has this got to do with how India didn't take their rape incident seriously? It's not as if this is being ignored.
Original post by RibenaRockstar
My attitude isn't 'well, what was she doing out' but 'well, why did she go onto the upstairs of the bus without her friend and with only those two guys?' That was a stupid thing to do...
No-one would say being out at 7.30am was a stupid thing to go, and it just shows that all the risk mitigation in the world can't be sure to keep you safe (as I know too, though on a smaller scale)
So, I don't stay in because of rapists - but when I go out I make sure I am wearing something that means I can run if I need to, and have a phone with a full battery just in case.
No-one would say being out at 7.30am was a stupid thing to go, and it just shows that all the risk mitigation in the world can't be sure to keep you safe (as I know too, though on a smaller scale)
So, I don't stay in because of rapists - but when I go out I make sure I am wearing something that means I can run if I need to, and have a phone with a full battery just in case.
The top of a bus is hardly generally thought of as a risky place to go, though! That's more absurd than "what was she doing out?", not less.
Original post by Octopus_Garden
I believe in mitigating risk, yes. But there's a line between mitigating risk and being expected to abnormally limit your life.
Oh good, we agree.
I look both ways when I cross the road- that's mitigating risk. Being expected to give up evening classes, socialising, or possible employment in case of sexual assault is victim blaming.
No one expects a woman to give up their evening classes, socialising or employment. One does expect, however, that they should try to get to and from those things safely. Getting (preferably sharing) a cab, travelling in groups, staying in well lit areas, avoid parks and places away from the public eye on your travels. None of these things prohibit what you can do, they just make it safer. Nothing's infallible but these things will minimise the risk.
It's also a foul attitude to have towards men. Implicit in the idea that women should stay indoors after dark, is the idea that good, kind, decent men morph into rapist-monsters after dark. They don't. Most men are good and kind all the time. A small minority of men are rapists all the time, constantly looking for an opportunity. As human beings, however, they want to justify their actions. Attitudes like "well, what was she doing out" allow them to do this.
Again, we're not telling you to stay inside. We're saying that these horrible people do exist, and we are trying to track them down, but in the meantime you should take precautions for your own safety.
It has nothing to do with blaming the victim or taking blame away from the men who do these things -- it's all about trying to keep people safe from harm.
Do you have any proof that my attitude towards rape will encourage others to do so? I'm fairly certain its a power trip, and contrary to your belief, the statistics seem to show that most rapists aren't serial rapists.
One of my friends was raped at 7.30am on the way to the newsagent for her dad, before school. Is she more, or less to blame because of the time she was outside her house? The answer is that she would never be to blame. She did not hold herself down!
Like the previous reply, no one would question that. That's an entirely unfortunate situation and absolutely horrendous, and she's not to blame. No one said she's to blame, you keep bringing up that word without any of us saying it. What is true is that there are safe ways of travelling to places that people should consider.
If you are staying in because of rapists, all you are doing is limiting your life, and making sure that the streets will be more dangerous for the women who have to go out that night. It's not preventing sexual assaults. It's diverting sexual assaults and then blaming the victims afterwards.
That's *******s, sorry. Women staying in aren't making it any more dangerous -- there's still the same number of rapists and hence the same risk that one of those women will be raped. If everyone just took sensible precautions we could massively reduce the number of rapes, and make it easier to prosecute those rapists who did decide to recklessly do so in public, well lit areas.
Original post by Octopus_Garden
The top of a bus is hardly generally thought of as a risky place to go, though! That's more absurd than "what was she doing out?", not less.
No it's not. She was downstairs with her friend, talking to these two strange men no doubt, and proceeded to go upstairs with them without her friend?
That's a sensible thing to do? Anyone who has been on a double decker bus in a city knows that upstairs is where the low-lives go to cause any trouble they want.
Again, no victim blaming here, it's about minimising risk.
Original post by Octopus_Garden
The top of a bus is hardly generally thought of as a risky place to go, though! That's more absurd than "what was she doing out?", not less.
Okay, let's calm down and analyse this for a second.
We have a 14 year old girl. The time is 22:30. She is with a friend at the bottom of a bus.
She leaves her friend alone at the bottom of the bus.
She sits on her own at the top of the bus, where there are two lewd, obscene young men aged around 18-20.
She proceeds to begin a conversation with them.
Given you were in the same situation, would you have assumed that your risk to harm was not increased by doing the latter 3 things?
As a guy, I sure wouldn't have. Even I get intimated by the loud lowlife groups at the top of some buses.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Redolent
Is it really that unusual for a 14 year old to be out of the house at 10:30pm, guys?
Yes.
Original post by maskofsanity
Yes.
I knew a hell of a lot of unusual 14 year olds then.
Original post by Octopus_Garden
The top of a bus is hardly generally thought of as a risky place to go, though!
It is at night, on your own, as a 14 year-old, with no one except two men upstairs.
thats horrible !
Original post by Popppppy
*posts about Glasgow*
Out of interest, have you noticed an increase in rape/sexual assault related happenings in Glasgow recently? My fiance lives there, I have been spending significant amounts of time there for only the last two years so I don't know if I just didn't notice anything before, if there has been an actual increase or if it's only a couple of things recently/chance and there is no change. As someone who lives there, have you/your friends noticed anything or do you feel there has been an increase?
Last week there was this, in January/February there was a string of sexual attacks in the West End thought to be by the same man, with increased police presence in the area, news reports warning women and putting out a description: It's not common to hear of a serial rapist at large in an area. At the New Year's party a female friend was talking to me about how she'd been harassed more recently. And obviously it's affecting my feeling that there has been an increase, but I was attacked by a rapist in October last year.
It could just be entirely chance, which is why I wonder if you have been feeling/noticing anything more than usual too? I did wonder if all the recent news coverage about rape and women's rights internationally has been causing a stronger divide of opinion (between the people annoyed by/thinking it is women's fault more often than not and everyone else). I wondered if men who were prone to wanting to gain power over women or getting frustrated/feeling entitled had it on their minds more, leading to more of them seeing opportunities and going for it.
What the hell is wrong with this country? Absolutely barbaric. Corruption everywhere.
The fact that she was out that late is fault of the parents. Not her. Just can't believe she got raped so publicly. Yeah people helped her afterwards but where were they before or during the attack?
Original post by maskofsanity
Yes.
You have no idea! Everyone in my school was out far later than 10 at that age and were getting drunk in the park.
Original post by SophiaKeuning
You have no idea! Everyone in my school was out far later than 10 at that age and were getting drunk in the park.
That is just your personal experience. On average, most 14 year-olds are not allowed out that late at night on their own, especially out and about on public transport. If they were, we'd be hearing about these rapes and similar crimes every single day.
Original post by ssxx
You are so ignorant and easily influenced by the media.
Indian men do not rape women more thanUK men.
It is a fact, Indian is more conservative than UK and hence Indian culture does not sexualise women and children in the same extend as the west.
You see harassment every day from work men wolf whistling at women on their way to work.
All these stories about a rape and harassment you been hearing is just done to blacken the countries name. It has 1.2 billion people so it will have more cases compared to the UK.
Indian men do not rape women more thanUK men.
It is a fact, Indian is more conservative than UK and hence Indian culture does not sexualise women and children in the same extend as the west.
You see harassment every day from work men wolf whistling at women on their way to work.
All these stories about a rape and harassment you been hearing is just done to blacken the countries name. It has 1.2 billion people so it will have more cases compared to the UK.
You do realise that by being conservative you basically ARE sexualising women without trying to? Whereas the West doesn't give a crap how women dress, conservative nations try to hide them and overprotect them BECAUSE they think they're precious little sexual objects, which makes them appear more sexual to the rest of the population.
I don't think India's problems are as big as other nations that mistreat women. The big demonstrations all over India were a positive sign of that, and if anything you should be happy that India had a chance to show to the rest of the world how liberal they are in freedom of speech and how they're trying to change for the better. They are bettering themselves every day and will soon join the rest of the first world countries with equality for everyone and better education.
Original post by Ribbits
Out of interest, have you noticed an increase in rape/sexual assault related happenings in Glasgow recently? My fiance lives there, I have been spending significant amounts of time there for only the last two years so I don't know if I just didn't notice anything before, if there has been an actual increase or if it's only a couple of things recently/chance and there is no change. As someone who lives there, have you/your friends noticed anything or do you feel there has been an increase?
Last week there was this, in January/February there was a string of sexual attacks in the West End thought to be by the same man, with increased police presence in the area, news reports warning women and putting out a description: It's not common to hear of a serial rapist at large in an area. At the New Year's party a female friend was talking to me about how she'd been harassed more recently. And obviously it's affecting my feeling that there has been an increase, but I was attacked by a rapist in October last year.
It could just be entirely chance, which is why I wonder if you have been feeling/noticing anything more than usual too? I did wonder if all the recent news coverage about rape and women's rights internationally has been causing a stronger divide of opinion (between the people annoyed by/thinking it is women's fault more often than not and everyone else). I wondered if men who were prone to wanting to gain power over women or getting frustrated/feeling entitled had it on their minds more, leading to more of them seeing opportunities and going for it.
Last week there was this, in January/February there was a string of sexual attacks in the West End thought to be by the same man, with increased police presence in the area, news reports warning women and putting out a description: It's not common to hear of a serial rapist at large in an area. At the New Year's party a female friend was talking to me about how she'd been harassed more recently. And obviously it's affecting my feeling that there has been an increase, but I was attacked by a rapist in October last year.
It could just be entirely chance, which is why I wonder if you have been feeling/noticing anything more than usual too? I did wonder if all the recent news coverage about rape and women's rights internationally has been causing a stronger divide of opinion (between the people annoyed by/thinking it is women's fault more often than not and everyone else). I wondered if men who were prone to wanting to gain power over women or getting frustrated/feeling entitled had it on their minds more, leading to more of them seeing opportunities and going for it.
Well I've only been living here for coming up to 3 years, so similar to you.
I have noticed a large number of rapes/indecent exposures seem to be happening in the West End, but I don't know if I'm just noticing them more because it's the West End which is supposed to be the safer part of town.
I live in the East End and I certainly haven't heard of any rapes near me, it's usually muggings round here (and by usually I mean maybe 4 the whole time I've lived here).
I certainly don't find there's a feeling among my female friends when we go out of "we gotta be really careful" more than any young women would usually feel, and I would happily walk the mile home from the city center alone.
Is anyone else extremely confused by the sequence of events resulting in the two rapists getting away with no trouble at all?
So the girl stupidly goes upstairs with the two guys. Her friend then comes up and sees she is being raped. She tells three passengers downstairs, including two men, who help the girls upstairs. Then the article finishes with:
So what exactly happened in between the passengers helping the girls and these two guys being ejected for a completely different reason than the rape? Did the passengers not confront the rapists? Did they not realise those two had raped the girl? Why did the bus driver force them off and why was it for an unrelated incident? So rape is ok but not "unruly behaviour"?
So the girl stupidly goes upstairs with the two guys. Her friend then comes up and sees she is being raped. She tells three passengers downstairs, including two men, who help the girls upstairs. Then the article finishes with:
The driver ejected the two males in question sometime later in the journey - this was due to separate unruly behaviour
So what exactly happened in between the passengers helping the girls and these two guys being ejected for a completely different reason than the rape? Did the passengers not confront the rapists? Did they not realise those two had raped the girl? Why did the bus driver force them off and why was it for an unrelated incident? So rape is ok but not "unruly behaviour"?
Original post by maskofsanity
Is anyone else extremely confused by the sequence of events resulting in the two rapists getting away with no trouble at all?
So the girl stupidly goes upstairs with the two guys. Her friend then comes up and sees she is being raped. She tells three passengers downstairs, including two men, who help the girls upstairs. Then the article finishes with:
So what exactly happened in between the passengers helping the girls and these two guys being ejected for a completely different reason than the rape? Did the passengers not confront the rapists? Did they not realise those two had raped the girl? Why did the bus driver force them off and why was it for an unrelated incident? So rape is ok but not "unruly behaviour"?
So the girl stupidly goes upstairs with the two guys. Her friend then comes up and sees she is being raped. She tells three passengers downstairs, including two men, who help the girls upstairs. Then the article finishes with:
So what exactly happened in between the passengers helping the girls and these two guys being ejected for a completely different reason than the rape? Did the passengers not confront the rapists? Did they not realise those two had raped the girl? Why did the bus driver force them off and why was it for an unrelated incident? So rape is ok but not "unruly behaviour"?
Just speculating, but maybe the girl was in hysterics and wasn't able to properly communicate what had happened until she was off the bus?
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