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Vienna
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#501
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#501
(Original post by adelz)
Palestinians do agree to the road map, the leadership CANNOT act against terror as the people of palestine support the organisations, as their security forces are in ruins due to israeli attacks and as the head of palestine is under house arrest . Many people dont want Israel to exist - I dont want Israel to exist but I think we all accept the fact that it has to exist -


hamas and arafat dont. their 'security forces', which ones would they be?

there is no other solution and hamas and arafat both know that and both HAVE SAID THAT IF ISRAEL PULLS BACK TO PRE 1967 BORDERS THERE WILL BE PEACE. ITS THAT SIMPLE.
so why turn down Bahrak and Sharon when they make these offers? why did Hamas leaders continue to plot and remain active when their part of the deal was to disarm and to be arrested?

And no Suicide bombers didnt interrupt the adoption of the peace plan - all the organisations had a ceasefire and israel continued targeting militants
they targeted A Hamas leader who posed an immeadiate threat to the security of its people. ISraeli force is visible, Palestinian terror is not. as such, blaming the IDF is substantially easier, and something the Arafat enjoys doing.

glad to see u know ur stuff.

errrr .. yeah .. thats nice ... what, got nothing better to say ?
erm, not on this point no.

Yeah you can have a reference, [url], its common fact that that is true. Anyway, yes the PA did agree to start arresting militants and they did .. all was well for a while

they did nothing. and a quote from a very brief Guardian summary of the conflict, come on. its hardly conclusive to the argument.

but then israel continued killing militants, someone blew himself up, the al aqsa martyrs brigade said that it was a renegade faction and offered an official apology but ... too late, israelis retaliated.
youd believe Osama Bin-Laden if he said he was sorry?

The current Palestinian PM also wants peace, also wants to stop terrorism but has said he cant stop it by force and is trying to negotiate. But is getting no support from Israel (definite assurances by them and therefore bargaining chips )
Abu Mazen was fully supported by the US and Israel as he promised to try and end terrorism. it was futile as he had no power of the cells that Arafat clearly ran. he resigned as a result. the latest PM has NEVER said that he will try and end terrorism.

LOL commitment to the defence of its people .. yeah right ... Their guarantee of defence to its people is to pull back to pre 1967 borders. Checkpoints are IN THE MIDDLE OF PALESTINIAN CONTROLLED TERRITORY as are settlements,


if you can perceive the practical difficulties in withdrawing people and erecting a border control without consistent protection this should answer ur question.

Kofi Annan has also called the Israeli settlements illegal.
And Im surprised YOU have the nerve to post without recognizing the concrete concerns of the Palestinian people - The Israelis are concerned with their safety so - pull back goddamnit and they will ahve safety - all the terrorist organisations have said they will not attack if israel pulls back.
Kofi Annan called Saddam Hussein "a man he could do business with" and told the Iraqi Governing Council that "they should be quiet, now wasnt the time for criticism"(following the Iraqis attack on the UN for letting Saddam ruin their country for so long). Kofi Annan is a joke.

[QUOTE
What do you mean by what timeframe - ever since they are in palestine they've been building settlements.

[/QUOTE]
i mean during the ceasefire, which is what you were alluding to. i was interested to know how ISrael could build new settlements in 7 weeks.

*shakes head*, who are you kidding? only yourself.
im not kidding anyone actually, he did get the nobel peace prize
yes and it was a joke.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA THAT just cracks me up .
You think he shares his money with hamas etc? Id like proof (reference) to that please [/b]
Bush is the only president to recognise the 2-state proposals.
his criticisms of Israel and peace efforts are relatively unparalled among former US heads of state.
The IMF report "Economic Performance and Reforms under Conflict Conditions," released last September in Abu Dhabi, was based on the same PA documents that the Israeli government had earlier provided to Patten and the European Parliament. The report concludes that at least 8 percent ($135 million) of the PA's annual budget of $1.08 billion is being spent by Arafat at his sole discretion — and does not even take into account Arafat's control of 60 percent of the security-apparatus budget, which leaves him with at least $360 million per year to spend as he chooses. In addition, the report states that $900 million in PA revenues "disappeared" between 1995 and 2000, and that the 2003 budget for Arafat's office, which totaled $74 million, was missing $34 million that Arafat had transferred to pay unidentified "organizations" and "individuals."


i twas still full of palestinians and palestinians did have a word in controlling it - when british left india it became india not .. some other random country .. what are you trying to say here ?
im trying to say that the Palestinians have been ruled for as long as their history cares to exist. yet they never showed so much hatred as when the Israelis were given land that they never controlled.
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thefish_uk
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#502
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#502
(Original post by gemgems89)
I don't know really. I would assume Palestine is developed, but I wouldn't know.
Hmm, apparently Israel certainly is developed but Palestine isn't.

Perhaps the more developed country should lead the way to peace. I guess it's trying to right now from what you've been saying.
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adelz
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#503
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#503
(Original post by Mr White)
Richer than most arab states that aren't oil-rich. Still, the Zionist's right to be there is far more significant than the Palestinian's.
errrr . .why is it far more significant ? This should be quite interesting ..
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DoctorNO
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#504
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#504
(Original post by Mad Caddie)
I agree very much. Sort out the Israeli's and save the Palestinian's. Simple. The catch is its never going to happen.
What do you mean by "sort out"?
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adelz
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#505
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#505
(Original post by gemgems89)
I don't know really. I would assume Palestine is developed, but I wouldn't know.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA that was REALLLLY funny .. . Are you like REALLLLLY stupid ?
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Howard
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#506
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#506
(Original post by gemgems89)
Because it is actually relevant and interesting.
Well, that must make me the only person alive (or at least on ULK) who actually couldn't give two hoots about Palestine or Israel, or for that matter, the people who reside there, rightfully or wrongfully.
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thefish_uk
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#507
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#507
(Original post by adelz)
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA that was REALLLLY funny .. . Are you like REALLLLLY stupid ?
Please, keep this to a civilised debate.
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Vienna
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#508
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#508
(Original post by Speciez99)
please do explain why iraq was a threat to any american city you care to name? most of countries ie poland supported america so they could get more trade eg american misslies
*sigh* you dont understand the concept of american national interest, the terrorist acquistion of WMDs or the fact the Poland understand first hand the threat from rogue states?
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thefish_uk
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#509
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#509
(Original post by adelz)
Yes I agree too - we really should just work for peace, but you have to understand what happened in order to understand the issue - though I dont think that history so long ago can be used as an argument that the land should go to israel.
Perhaps,

But it's still valid, unless you're going to also dismiss your argument for Palestine deserving the land.

Get peace. Negotiate.
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Vienna
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#510
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#510
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Please, keep this to a civilised debate.
some of us find it easier than others.
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adelz
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#511
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#511
(Original post by vienna95)
*sigh* you dont understand the concept of american national interest, the terrorist acquistion of WMDs or the fact the Poland understand first hand the threat from rogue states?
something like 15 states out of 140 in the world supported the US, most of them to get financial support . That is not a majority. The US cannot attack a country because they have WMDs - which they didnt - they attacked as iraq is oil rich, second in the world. Anyway, this thread is about Israel - palestine so lets keep it to that
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thefish_uk
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#512
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#512
(Original post by vienna95)
some of us find it easier than others.
Yeah, I think this thread has managed to stay peaceful without turning into a ****ging match until now.

Which is good, there are intelligent people posting intelligent arguments. Like yourself.
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Vienna
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#513
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#513
(Original post by adelz)

Youll have to thank the Bus bombers for that.
Ummm .. I dont think the bus bombers have anything to do with my dad getting interrogated and treated like a criminal - its not a justification.
yes they do. the Israelis check every possible suspicion. dont take it to heart, but they suspected you and they checked you out. its a fact of life when you live in a region where people find blowing themselves up as some divine right.

mobile phones are used to detonate bombs.
lol yeah and .... that doesnt give them the right to confiscate our mobile phones, we are entering palestine, gaza city not israel . Do you get your phone confiscated at Dover or wherever ?!
*shakes head* u need a wake-up call.

There are many arab Israelis and they enjoy everything in Israel almost as much as the jews.
They do .. and ?
Palestine doesnt offer the same rights, dignity or respect.

I agree that no one can afford to be extremely one sided, I think both sides have some fault in the conflict but I think that Israel is definately more to blame, especially as its is the occupying force and it is the more powerful of the two. Bombers cant be "encouraged" they just do it because they feel that they have to ..
being more powerful is wrong!? being more powerful means they can perform exact military operations limiting the number of casualties while protecting themselves.
so if they have to, perhaps you can explain all of the videotapes pumped out by the martyrs and the posters that Arafat has put up throughout Palestine celebrating their acts.
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material breach
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#514
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#514
(Original post by Vienna95)
*sigh* you dont understand the concept of american national interest, the terrorist acquistion of WMDs or the fact the Poland understand first hand the threat from rogue states?
no i obviously dont, instead of patronising me i was hoping you might be able to explain it to me. how were any american cities under a direct treat from iraq?
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Vienna
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#515
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#515
(Original post by adelz)
something like 15 states out of 140 in the world supported the US, most of them to get financial support . That is not a majority. The US cannot attack a country because they have WMDs - which they didnt - they attacked as iraq is oil rich, second in the world. Anyway, this thread is about Israel - palestine so lets keep it to that
the US used a UN resolution and an amendment to the UN charter as grounds for protecting their interests. the coalition stretched to more than 15 states. and if were talking about financial support, the anti-War coalition had more financial interest than the US had.
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Vienna
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#516
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#516
(Original post by Speciez99)
no i obviously dont, instead of patronising me i was hoping you might be able to explain it to me. how were any american cities under a direct treat from iraq?
patronising?
which do you want me to explain?
direct threat when?
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material breach
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#517
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#517
(Original post by Vienna95)
Bush is the only president to recognise the 2-state proposals.
his criticisms of Israel and peace efforts are relatively unparalled among former US heads of state.
The IMF report "Economic Performance and Reforms under Conflict Conditions," released last September in Abu Dhabi, was based on the same PA documents that the Israeli government had earlier provided to Patten and the European Parliament. The report concludes that at least 8 percent ($135 million) of the PA's annual budget of $1.08 billion is being spent by Arafat at his sole discretion — and does not even take into account Arafat's control of 60 percent of the security-apparatus budget, which leaves him with at least $360 million per year to spend as he chooses. In addition, the report states that $900 million in PA revenues "disappeared" between 1995 and 2000, and that the 2003 budget for Arafat's office, which totaled $74 million, was missing $34 million that Arafat had transferred to pay unidentified "organizations" and "individuals."
this evidence was based on isreali intelligence, gonna be unbias then. 2ndly no terror groups are mentioned in that report. in retort i would like to also provide some evidence
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/02/isr-pa-0221.htm
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Vienna
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#518
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#518
(Original post by Speciez99)
this evidence was based on isreali intelligence, gonna be unbias then. 2ndly no terror groups are mentioned in that report. in retort i would like to also provide some evidence
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/02/isr-pa-0221.htm
based on israeli intelligence? no its an IMF report, based on seized PA documents. the IMF doesnt hand out biased propaganda. at least not in cases like these.

HWR points out an unfortunate reality. terrorists happily using civilians as cover. the IDF do remarkably well to limit the number of innocent casualties. talking of which HWR are remarkably biased, but since weve already read everthing from the Guardian office, why stop there.
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gemgems89
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#519
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#519
(Original post by Howard)
Well, that must make me the only person alive (or at least on ULK) who actually couldn't give two hoots about Palestine or Israel, or for that matter, the people who reside there, rightfully or wrongfully.
Well if you don't care why are you on this thread?
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gemgems89
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#520
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#520
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Hmm, apparently Israel certainly is developed but Palestine isn't.

Perhaps the more developed country should lead the way to peace. I guess it's trying to right now from what you've been saying.
Why should that be? And yes, Israel are trying to anyway.
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