French Presidential Election

Doesn't look like the two-round system's going to throw up any oddities like it normally does this time. Yes, everyone knows about Le Pen in 2002, but not as many people know about Bayrou and Royal in 2007. Sarkozy had been safely through to Round 2 for weeks, but Bayrou had been just behind Royal for ages, and I think was ahead of her in second for a day or two at one point. But what was interesting was that if Royal got to the second round, polls were showing that bar a catastrophe Sarkozy would safely win (and of course, that is what happened). But if Bayrou had finished second and got into round two, polls were showing that he almost certainly would have won.

Reply 21

Dux_Helvetica

12

Marine Le Pen. I like the combination of desperately-needed reforms of social policy (especially regarding immigration and crime, which are both linked to one another in many respects) as well as the economic protectionism. I'm not a huge fan of her anglophobia, however.

Reply 22

tomcol23

Hopefully anyone but Sarkozy will win

Reply 23

Bellissima

16

it's a shame le pen is so popular...

Reply 24

tehFrance

17

Original post by tomcol23

Hopefully anyone but Sarkozy will win

You are a Conservative... that equates to UMP in France, who do you want to win? :s-smilie:

Reply 25

tomcol23

Original post by tehFrance

You are a Conservative... that equates to UMP in France, who do you want to win? :s-smilie:

Well I would want the UMP to win, but I am not a fan of Sarkozy

Reply 26

anarchism101

17

Original post by Bellissima

it's a shame le pen is so popular...

I always find it ironic that even though the FN reject the revolution, their rallies are always filled with people waving tricolores, and even their logo has one in. :biggrin:

Reply 27

Cannotbelieveit

15

The last thing France and Europe needs, is a socialist winning this election.

Reply 28

LysFromParis

10

Original post by Made in the USA

Reading that list of policies made me glad I don't live in France. They all have at least one policy that would them completely unelectable here. I don't see any that want to cut spending and cut taxes.

Most French are glad to not live in USA for the same reason and most solution proposed by both of your candidate would make them unelectable here :wink:

. Cutting spending is highly unpopular (although some decentralisation and removing some redundancy between the different level would not hurt) and most people favour moving the tax from the work to the consumption (through higher VAT or tax on imported product). Also we probably health and education for all, over money.

Reply 29

anarchism101

17

Original post by Cannotbelieveit

The last thing France and Europe needs, is a socialist winning this election.

'France and Europe' here meaning the EU bureaucrats and the banking and corporate rich.

Reply 30

Stéphane

2

Original post by anarchism101

'France and Europe' here meaning the EU bureaucrats and the banking and corporate rich.

Exactly. Liberals can be very good at convincing people that there's nothing we can do about the situation we're in. Most economists would agree on that, because they are numerous to worship such an unjustifiable system.

We should always recall that some people are in their best interest to let others believe that economy rules politics, as if the liberal system wasn't politically set up - as if, in fact, there was no political solution to it.

Reply 31

Made in the USA

11

Original post by LysFromParis

Most French are glad to not live in USA for the same reason and most solution proposed by both of your candidate would make them unelectable here :wink:

. Cutting spending is highly unpopular (although some decentralisation and removing some redundancy between the different level would not hurt) and most people favour moving the tax from the work to the consumption (through higher VAT or tax on imported product). Also we probably health and education for all, over money.

It may be unpopular, but with debt swallowing up european countries, they are going to have to show some responsibility and stop spending like drunken sailors.

Some of these policies are so idiotic it shows that these people have no clue about economics. For example, you read that one candidate supports "the creation of a "Made in France" industry to support the growth of French companies" but also "supports an increase of VAT", which will make it much harder for businesses to sell anything in your country because goods will be too expensive. And what kind of a lunatic would even suggest that anyone should pay 75% of their income in taxes? :confused:

The anti-legal immigration policies are insane too.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 32

LysFromParis

10

Original post by Made in the USA

It may be unpopular, but with debt swallowing up european countries, they are going to have to show some responsibility and stop spending like drunken sailors.

Some of these policies are so idiotic it shows that these people have no clue about economics. For example, you read that one candidate supports "the creation of a "Made in France" industry to support the growth of French companies" but also "supports an increase of VAT", which will make it much harder for businesses to sell anything in your country because goods will be too expensive. And what kind of a lunatic would even suggest that anyone should pay 75% of their income in taxes? :confused:

The anti-legal immigration policies are insane too.

Well, for the immigration part, USA law are more restrictive on legal immigration than any European one as far as now (it is being corrected slowly during the last years). We are also faced with the fact that we still have families chattered between former colonial Empire and France which have the right to be reunited, a problem which obviously do not occur in USA. The US green card which is basically choosing your immigrants, when an equivalent was introduced in France just a few years ago was like something never thought about before. I do not think you quite understand how immigration is working in Europe and how those effects on the job market. Finally, at the exception of the nationalist party, none seems to argue about the right for asylum.

For the tax : Probably the same kind of lunatic as the US president which once raised tax to 90%. Do I have to introduce you to the history of your own country?

For the VAT : it comes with a reduction on companies taxes. The idea is to remove burden from French companies in order to make them competitive and make foreign imported products contribute more. A lot of politician also want a "social" VAT to be introduced in order to compensate on social disparities services between EU and the rest of the world. For example a Chinese product will be more taxed as they provide poor welfare to their citizen in order to remain competitive, while EU products will be less taxed. However, it has to be a European level policy. Before, the "it is impossible", well EU is the largest market in the world, if our politician grow balls and finally realise that we can pretty damn do whatever we want, it would probably work. It is not like any country can decide to stop selling stuff to EU.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 33

jakemittle

17

Original post by Made in the USA

It may be unpopular, but with debt swallowing up european countries, they are going to have to show some responsibility and stop spending like drunken sailors.

Some of these policies are so idiotic it shows that these people have no clue about economics. For example, you read that one candidate supports "the creation of a "Made in France" industry to support the growth of French companies" but also "supports an increase of VAT", which will make it much harder for businesses to sell anything in your country because goods will be too expensive. And what kind of a lunatic would even suggest that anyone should pay 75% of their income in taxes? :confused:

The anti-legal immigration policies are insane too.

Okay that is insane..im with you on that

Reply 34

Rastagong

Original post by Made in the USA

And what kind of a lunatic would even suggest that anyone should pay 75% of their income in taxes? :confused:

Original post by jakemittle

Okay that is insane..im with you on that

You have misunderstood the way income taxation works in France: there's progressivity. Wikipedia explains it quite well. Basically, someone earning €1 million a year would NOT have to pay €750,000.

There are slices of income, each one having a specific tax rate. For instance (these numbers are totally faked to make it simple), below €100, the tax rate could be 0%, from €100 to €250, it could be 1.5%, from €250 to €500, 2%, and so on.

Here are a few practical examples. If you earned €50 a year, you wouldn't have to pay anything. If you earned €150, you wouldn't pay anything on the first €100, but you would pay 1.5% of the remaining €50. If you earned €500, you wouldn't pay anything on the first €100, you would pay 1.5% of the following €150, and you would pay 2% on the remaining €250. Got i? :smile:

(I'm not sure whether it was clear…)

What the socialist candidate has proposed, is to apply a 75% tax rate OVER €1 million. Below this threshold, the current tax rates would still be applied.

Similarly, Melenchon has proposed to apply a 100% tax rate over €360,000. :biggrin:

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 35

username402722

19

It's looking more like Francois Hollande it seems. Can't see Nicolas Sarkozy's loss being mourned in Britain- mind you most French presidents upset British people at some point.

Reply 36

Aconcernedparent

8

Sarkozy/UMP. I think he's the best of the options. Also, whenever I've gone through all the candidates standpoints (you can do that on a French webpage, you can also take a test in English), my result has always been that UMP is the party closest to me.
The OP's sum-up is very good, although I must add that it is brief and some of the important opinions of Le Pen are not mentioned there (I agree with their view on immigration, but I know for a fact that deep down, FN is against abortion).
Francois Hollande is not a sensible candidate by any terms to me. Even if you happen to make €1m, 75% income tax is ridiculous and an ambition-killer. He has no experience as mayor and generally being in charge. He wants to erase student scholarships, free school transport, the € 1,000 premium childcare and cut nearly all aid to the elderly or dependent.

Reply 37

Captain Crash

9

Original post by Made in the USA

And what kind of a lunatic would even suggest that anyone should pay 75% of their income in taxes? :confused:

The anti-legal immigration policies are insane too.

Wait til you see Melenchon. He's proposing a 100% marginal tax rate above 500,000 euros....

Reply 38

Made in the USA

11

Original post by Rastagong

You have misunderstood the way income taxation works in France: there's progressivity. Wikipedia explains it quite well. Basically, someone earning €1 million a year would NOT have to pay €750,000.

There are slices of income, each one having a specific tax rate. For instance (these numbers are totally faked to make it simple), below €100, the tax rate could be 0%, from €100 to €250, it could be 1.5%, from €250 to €500, 2%, and so on.

Here are a few practical examples. If you earned €50 a year, you wouldn't have to pay anything. If you earned €150, you wouldn't pay anything on the first €100, but you would pay 1.5% of the remaining €50. If you earned €500, you wouldn't pay anything on the first €100, you would pay 1.5% of the following €150, and you would pay 2% on the remaining €250. Got i? :smile:

(I'm not sure whether it was clear…)

What the socialist candidate has proposed, is to apply a 75% tax rate OVER €1 million. Below this threshold, the current tax rates would still be applied.

Similarly, Melenchon has proposed to apply a 100% tax rate over €360,000. :biggrin:

I understand it perfectly. It's the politicians proposing this insane ideas that are lacking understanding. They don't understand how these kinds of tax policies effect the behavior of people. It's very unlikely that a French Steve Jobs or a French Bill Gates will start the next Apple or Microsoft if they only get to keep 25% of their income past a certain level. Socialists think that the best and brightest and most productive people they have will continue to produce for free.

Have you ever wondered why the USA is so far ahead in technology? Why is the US producing iPhones, iPads, fantastic MP3 players, and 95% of the worlds software? Why is every almost every computer CPU made by a US company? It's not because our schools or education system is better (although we are good at the university level). It's because our tax code doesn't shackle the entrepreneurs.

If France decides to elect these kinds of leaders (who would be mocked and ridiculed into obscurity in most 1st world nations) I guarantee there will be more economic misery and unemployment.

Reply 39

anarchism101

17

Original post by Made in the USA

I understand it perfectly. It's the politicians proposing this insane ideas that are lacking understanding. They don't understand how these kinds of tax policies effect the behavior of people. It's very unlikely that a French Steve Jobs or a French Bill Gates will start the next Apple or Microsoft if they only get to keep 25% of their income past a certain level. Socialists think that the best and brightest and most productive people they have will continue to produce for free.

Generally, the rich are not productive, they leech off others' production. The actual producers of goods are generally not that well off.

Have you ever wondered why the USA is so far ahead in technology? Why is the US producing iPhones, iPads, fantastic MP3 players, and 95% of the worlds software? Why is every almost every computer CPU made by a US company? It's not because our schools or education system is better (although we are good at the university level). It's because our tax code doesn't shackle the entrepreneurs.

No, it's because the US technology industry is one of the most state-subsidised industries on the planet. R&D all paid for through taxes and built up as part of 'military technology' in the Pentagon. And then the big computer companies get the by-products.

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