what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university

Lawz-

It is by no means obvious. "Black culture" in London covers a huge number of anglicised groups... from Somalian, to Jamaican to Zambian.

I disagree with you there. I do not perceive the term "Black culture" to be as literal as you perceive it to be. When people talk about Black Culture in the UK, they are talking about a British Black culture which has its origins in all the various Black subcultures (ie African, African-American etc) but these various influences have birthed a specific UK Black culture.

Just to try and extend this debate before it descends into petty niggling, do you think that the MOBO awards is a racist institution?

Reply 422

Laika

1

Lawz-

It is by no means obvious. "Black culture" in London covers a huge number of anglicised groups... from Somalian, to Jamaican to Zambian.

There are obviously differences between different 'black' socities throughout the world. But if you look at any University Socieities list, these specific cultures are often catered for.

'Black' culture in itself obviously refers to either A. the political identity in being a black person in the west (in terms of institutional racism and history of blacks or whatever), or B. The specific culture of a 'western' black, in other words, the culture associated with being a black from the west, borrowing heavily from African American culture.

It is clear that 'black culture' isn't used in the sense you describe, to canopy all black cultures.

Reply 423

wacabac

So are you saying that Ukranian culture, Indian culture, Hispanic culture, Mexican culture, Australian and NZ culture, Chinese culture, Dutch culture, Greek culture, Korean culture, Malaysian culture, Singaporean culture, Polish culture, Taiwanese culture, Thai culture, Scandinavian culture, Scottish culture and Caribbean culture are meaningless and irrelevant terms?

No, I am saying they are no more meaningless and irrelevant than any other form of culture.

If I had meant what you said then that is what I would have said.

It was not, was it?

Reply 424

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mango/

A telling page indeed. I know Mango actually, and though it refers to Afro-Caribbean people, it clearly goes on to specify that they aim to "bring together black students" and that it "provides a platform" from which one may "celebrate black culture and black history," specifically "African and Caribbean roots".

So it refers to BLACK students, not ones of a particular extraction. Secondly it talks about Caribbean AND AFrican history and roots, which implies it covers a very great range of groups and peoples indeed. It is in NO WAY limited in the sense, that some such as cottonmouth have chose to limit it.

Reply 425

Laika

It is clear that 'black culture' isn't used in the sense you describe, to canopy all black cultures.

Exactly.

Reply 426

Laika

Most of your posts are useless pedanticism that serve no real contribution to the overall points. It's obvious that not everyone in a particular demographic will subscribe to the same cultural values, but that doesn't mean the term culture is useless or has no meaning.

No, it was your answer that was useless.

I did not say the term culture was meaningless or useless, I was stating that the defenitions applied here, by people, have been meaningless, and useless, and applied selectively.

It's just as obvious that 'black' culture in its British context refers to a specific culture, whereas 'white' does not.

If it's so obvious then show me.

People keep saying this, but can't show it, and where does the word British come in?

It's black culture, not black british culture, the same as the word we are using is white, not white british.

Why is it that it's black british, when it's black, but when we mention white it's "there is no such thing as culture cuz itz different in Britain from France"?

Now that's the useless argument.

Reply 427

Laika

A. the political identity in being a black person in the west (in terms of institutional racism and history of blacks or whatever), or B. The specific culture of a 'western' black, in other words, the culture associated with being a black from the west, borrowing heavily from African American culture.

Then you can link me to these specific societies too?

Reply 428

wacabac

I disagree with you there. I do not perceive the term "Black culture" to be as literal as you perceive it to be. When people talk about Black Culture in the UK, they are talking about a British Black culture which has its origins in all the various Black subcultures (ie African, African-American etc) but these various influences have birthed a specific UK Black culture.

And I disagrew with you. You seem to be saying that "black culture" only refers here, to cultures from elsewhere that have been filtered into a British version of it. That simply isnt true. We can see that say, people from Somalia, living in North London, who have been here for a couple of years, are part of "black culture" in this country, and yet they havent even BEGUN to anglicise their brand.

UK black culture has so many different groups, and peoples, and influences and sects, that to describe it as relatively homogenous is a gross micharacterisation.

wacabac

Just to try and extend this debate before it descends into petty niggling, do you think that the MOBO awards is a racist institution?

I dont know enough about it. I dont think a black society is racist if it is non-exclusionary. The double standard comes for me, in what I believe the reaction would be to white society, measured next to a black one.

Reply 429

Laika

1

Lawz-

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mango/

A telling page indeed. I know Mango actually, and though it refers to Afro-Caribbean people, it clearly goes on to specify that they aim to "bring together black students" and that it "provides a platform" from which one may "celebrate black culture and black history," specifically "African and Caribbean roots".

So it refers to BLACK students, not ones of a particular extraction. Secondly it talks about Caribbean AND AFrican history and roots, which implies it covers a very great range of groups and peoples indeed. It is in NO WAY limited in the sense, that some such as cottonmouth have chose to limit it.

xACS aims to bring together black students in Oxford University by providing a sociable environment in which they can get to know each other and other students who share their interest in contemporary black culture. It provides a platform from which like minded people can jointly celebrate black culture and black history, commemorating their African and Caribbean roots.

Sounds to me like it quite explicitly is referring to the western 'black' culture (note the contemporary), which has its roots in very specific cultures. Not at all all-encompassing as you suggest.

Reply 430

Lawz-

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mango/

A telling page indeed. I know Mango actually, and though it refers to Afro-Caribbean people, it clearly goes on to specify that they aim to "bring together black students" and that it "provides a platform" from which one may "celebrate black culture and black history," specifically "African and Caribbean roots".

So it refers to BLACK students, not ones of a particular extraction. Secondly it talks about Caribbean AND AFrican history and roots, which implies it covers a very great range of groups and peoples indeed. It is in NO WAY limited in the sense, that some such as cottonmouth have chose to limit it.

Your cheating now, you are using genuine societies, and not the artifical constructions, that have no relation to reality, being put forward to justify an argument that has no justification.

Reply 431

Paul Bedford

No, I am saying they are no more meaningless and irrelevant than any other form of culture.

So "Northern-Hemisphere culture" and "Southern-Hemisphere culture" would be useful terms too? How about "Countries beginning with A" culture? Or "Countries who have a mean yearly temperature of more than 15 degrees Celsius culture"? Or do you agree that "white culture" along with these terms are particularly vague? In that case, you are saying that any kind of culture definition is meaningless and irrelevant, in which case, there should be no "indian society" or "taiwanese society" because basically they would be no difference between them?

Reply 432

Laika

It is clear that 'black culture' isn't used in the sense you describe, to canopy all black cultures.

It is about as clear as mud.

If you honestly think this then either:

a) Certain unanglicised and disparate groups of Africans and other blacks are not part of black culture

b) Black culture is not as homogenous as you contend.

Which is it?

Reply 433

wacabac

So "Northern-Hemisphere culture" and "Southern-Hemisphere culture" would be useful terms too?

Certainly not meaningless.

wacabac

How about "Countries beginning with A" culture?

Since that aspect would have NO effect on culture, it is fairly pointless. However as much as you would liek to pretend otherwise, there is much in common between most of the white countries of the world.

wacabac

In that case, you are saying that any kind of culture definition is meaningless and irrelevant, in which case, there should be no "indian society" or "taiwanese society" because basically they would be no difference between them?

THe complete opposite. You can talk about the culture of any group you choose, if the characteristic you choose demonstrates SOME common cultural bond.

Its degrees of specificity, and you have simply rather arbitrarily chosen your cut off point for "meaning".

Reply 434

Paul Bedford

Your cheating now, you are using genuine societies, and not the artifical constructions, that have no relation to reality, being put forward to justify an argument that has no justification.

I'm sorry, did it offend you that I brought such a link into the discussion whereby we might actually discuss true cases of such societies rather than you useless twittering about hypothetical society A and hypothetical circumstance X?

Reply 435

Laika

1

Lawz-

It is about as clear as mud.

If you honestly think this then either:

a) Certain unanglicised and disparate groups of Africans and other blacks are not part of black culture

b) Black culture is not as homogenous as you contend.

Which is it?

Neither. The TERM black culture in this context, refers to a specific type of black culture. The political and social identity of being black in the west and celebrating the cultural roots of that identity.

-That does not mean all black people are a part of that culture or want to celebrate it.
-It does not mean people outside the west are not a part of black culture.

It simply means that the term here applies to an obvious sense of black identity.

This is not relevant in a 'white' context because 'white' is not used as a term to describe any equivalent culture or identity. That would be British, which is a culture. 'White culture' as a term, does not have any specific cultural values attached to it like black does.

Reply 436

wacabac

I'm sorry, did it offend you that I brought such a link into the discussion whereby we might actually discuss true cases of such societies rather than you useless twittering about hypothetical society A and hypothetical circumstance X?

I dont really agree that hypotheticals are "useless twittering" at all.

Since no "white societies" exist as I can find them, this has to be, in part, hypothetical.

Reply 437

Lawz-

Certainly not meaningless.

But are these terms really valuable for society titles?

Reply 438

wacabac

So "Northern-Hemisphere culture" and "Southern-Hemisphere culture" would be useful terms too?

To a degree yes, the traditional cultures of the southern hemisphere and northern hemisphere do have areas of distinct differences, and therefore there is some relevence.

How about "Countries beginning with A" culture?

No, because that is a political label, and nothing to do with people and how they have evolved.

Or "Countries who have a mean yearly temperature of more than 15 degrees Celsius culture"?

Again, yes, there is some merit in observing such a culture.

Evolution is affected by climate, amongst other things, and therefore the culture of people from different climates will have some areas that are exclusive to them.

Or do you agree that "white culture" along with these terms are particularly vague?

No more vague than black culture.

If you disagree then show me different.

In that case, you are saying that any kind of culture definition is meaningless and irrelevant, in which case, there should be no "indian society" or "taiwanese society" because basically they would be no difference between them?

No, I am not only not saying that but I have made that clear to you on more than one occassion.

So why bother to ask?

Reply 439