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Man exposes penis at feminist rally
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Top lad, giving the one finger (or one penis) salute to all that liberal trash
Original post by franki91
The program did also explain how difficult it was to get a rapist in court, and how even harder it is to get the rapist convicted, and this can be because of factors such as how intoxicated the woman was and what she was wearing etc. It's a lot more complicated than most people think. And whether it is only a 'minority' or more than that, the fact that there is a substantial amount to show up in surveys and whatever else is just so saddening.
And I already said a few pages back, I highly doubt the practise of questioning what the woman was wearing is at all prevalent.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Could you provide a link (or name), please?
I'd like to see precisely what they mean by "blame". There's a big difference between attributing causal significance to someone's actions and holding them morally at fault.
I'd like to see precisely what they mean by "blame". There's a big difference between attributing causal significance to someone's actions and holding them morally at fault.
Here's an article on the program:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17487519
But she said nothing could have prepared her for the aggressive nature of the cross examination about the rape by the defence lawyer.
"He accused me of liking it... it was horrific. I thought I was a victim, but at that point I felt like a criminal."
"He accused me of liking it... it was horrific. I thought I was a victim, but at that point I felt like a criminal."
Laura didn't think the police or a jury would believe her.
"People have such defined views, I was staying over at his house - they think 'if you were there then what did you expect'."
"People have such defined views, I was staying over at his house - they think 'if you were there then what did you expect'."
The CPS (The Crown Prosecution Service) say the majority of the cases they deal with involve young girls who know their attacker and drink is often involved. They say this leads to problems with jury members' perceptions and prejudices.
Original post by franki91
I suspect that "he accused me of liking it" means "he suggested that it was consensual". He's a defence lawyer. He's doing his job.
The second quote is conjecture on the part of the victim. If people do write it off in that way it's horrible, but there's not even a quote of anyone actually saying something like that in the article, let alone survey results on how many do.
Original post by President M.E.
Top lad, giving the one finger (or one penis) salute to all that liberal trash
Modern feminism is a far cry from liberalism.
Original post by Redolent
No, it's because in this country, fortunately, you are innocent until proven guilty. Witness reliability is an extremely important factor, if a witness is unreliable it is better to be cautious in order to avoid sending an innocent man to jail.
Yep.
Look at this
The judge tells them they have to be 100% certain of the verdict which in my eyes is bizarre. It's human nature to have doubt and to have your own opinions
I guess where rape is involved the jury should just guess, right?
(The quote is from the BBC News article above)
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by franki91
this article is terrible.
it essentially assumes that everything women say is truth.
How about on the minute silence war thing, I get my dick out then?
Original post by moritzplatz
this article is terrible.
it essentially assumes that everything women say is truth.
it essentially assumes that everything women say is truth.
Um, no, it's an article summarising a program that the BBC put together and explored the experiences of some rape victims. I dont really think that you can comment on the content properly unless you've seen the program, which is no longer available (as far as I can see anyway).
Original post by TimmonaPortella
You speak about these things as if they're all bad ideas. Even the ones that aren't particularly good ones -- I'm prepared to accept that one's clothing doesn't affect one's vulnerability to rape etc -- are made with good intentions. Society rightly doesn't want women to be raped (or robbed, or subject to any other sort of crime that might happen if she goes out alone when it's dark etc).
As for the "someone would certainly blame me..." comment, I rather doubt that in any circumstances.
As for the "someone would certainly blame me..." comment, I rather doubt that in any circumstances.
They're not helpful though. They only serve to make women more scared and don't tackle one of the fundamental issues at the centre of rape - men's power over women. Drinking makes men and women vulnerable to attacks, so why is it only women who are made to feel that way when they are drinking? We shouldn't have to live our lives in fear of rape, but we do because that's what we're constantly told we should do.
Original post by Arva
Irrelevant. I'm not sure whether that's a point for the sake of it, or whether you're trying to say that inequality is OK for men because it's (in your opinion) less prevalent than for women.
Untrue - many cultures around the world don't attach any sexual connotations to nudity and embrace it on a regular basis, e.g. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Barcelona, and hundreds of tribes around the globe.
Untrue - many cultures around the world don't attach any sexual connotations to nudity and embrace it on a regular basis, e.g. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Barcelona, and hundreds of tribes around the globe.
I was saying that men currently have more freedom than women, so they will be equal when women have the same freedoms as them. Men are treated unequally now - they have better treatment.
I was talking about the UK, but I guess it depends on what you mean by exposure. If you count 'exposure' as showing breasts, then men can do that nearly everywhere in the world. If a man walked down the street today without a top on, he might get a lot of attention because of the weather, but it's not seen as obscene. If a woman were to do the same, it wouldn't be long before the police were talking to her. But if we're bringing other cultures into this, then look at all of the countries where even a woman's head is seen as obscene. And in less strict places, women cannot show their legs/shoulders etc. Overall, men's body parts are seen as far more acceptable than women's in that it is only their genitals that are seen as offensive in public.
Original post by ArtGoblin
They're not helpful though. They only serve to make women more scared and don't tackle one of the fundamental issues at the centre of rape - men's power over women. Drinking makes men and women vulnerable to attacks, so why is it only women who are made to feel that way when they are drinking? We shouldn't have to live our lives in fear of rape, but we do because that's what we're constantly told we should do.
I'd feel pretty afraid if I was wandering round intoxicated and alone in a city in the dark, as would mostly all other guys. No-one should have to live their lives in fear of any crime, but when the crimes happen often in certain circumstances fear is a sensible emotion.
Don't try and pin rape on "all men". Most of us are horrified at the thought.
Original post by franki91
There was a program on BBC iplayer a while back about rape and featured rape survivors. The message the program gave out, (with the mention of facts such as different survey results etc) was that a surprising amount of people in the UK do actively blame the woman for what happened, which effectively excuses the rapist.
I don't see how anyone can possibly arrive at this conclusion from any argument, let alone what you have stated above.
If I am a victim of theft because I am careless with my posessions and left my window open, does it effectively excuse the person who climbed in and stole my laptop? Absolutely not.
Original post by franki91
The program did also explain how difficult it was to get a rapist in court, and how even harder it is to get the rapist convicted, and this can be because of factors such as how intoxicated the woman was and what she was wearing etc.
In the vast, vast majority of rape cases it is one person's word against the other, no evidence apart from that (and the fact that sex occured) of course.
The question as to whether the woman was intoxicated is also relevant. How likely is it that they are going to be able to accurately recall events as they happened from the night before? That just introduces more reasonable doubt into the case.
She says he did, he says he didn't. Would you convict someone on that evidence? No, really, would you? What if the genders were reversed?
Original post by franki91
It's a lot more complicated than most people think. And whether it is only a 'minority' or more than that, the fact that there is a substantial amount to show up in surveys and whatever else is just so saddening.
It's saddening that people think that believing a person can take reasonable care of themselves and their possessions to reduce exposure to crime amounts to victim blaming and excusing the criminal when a crime is committed.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by ArtGoblin
They're not helpful though. They only serve to make women more scared and don't tackle one of the fundamental issues at the centre of rape - men's power over women. Drinking makes men and women vulnerable to attacks, so why is it only women who are made to feel that way when they are drinking? We shouldn't have to live our lives in fear of rape, but we do because that's what we're constantly told we should do.
Original post by franki91
Um, no, it's an article summarising a program that the BBC put together and explored the experiences of some rape victims. I dont really think that you can comment on the content properly unless you've seen the program, which is no longer available (as far as I can see anyway).
Jane (not her real name) said she felt "numb" when the jury found her attacker not guilty.
So even after he has been found not guilty he still referenced as an attacker by the BBC. It sets the stand point, if a women has made an accusation the person is then guilty and its just whether or not they are convicted. Rather than the innocent until proven guilty.
Original post by franki91
Um, no, it's an article summarising a program that the BBC put together and explored the experiences of some rape victims. I dont really think that you can comment on the content properly unless you've seen the program, which is no longer available (as far as I can see anyway).
well, is the way in which things are presented that made me comment.
i don't really like the way you present it neither:
"the experiences of some rape victims"
should be
"the experiences of some people that say they have been raped"
Original post by doggyfizzel
I think his point was
So even after he has been found not guilty he still referenced as an attacker by the BBC. It sets the stand point, if a women has made an accusation the person is then guilty and its just whether or not they are convicted. Rather than the innocent until proven guilty.
So even after he has been found not guilty he still referenced as an attacker by the BBC. It sets the stand point, if a women has made an accusation the person is then guilty and its just whether or not they are convicted. Rather than the innocent until proven guilty.
exactly.
Original post by ArtGoblin
I was saying that men currently have more freedom than women, so they will be equal when women have the same freedoms as them. Men are treated unequally now - they have better treatment.
Fast forward to 5:00
I can see you are demonstrating typical behaviour shown here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274
...experiments confirmed that women's automatic in-group bias is remarkably stronger than men's and investigated explanations for this sex difference, derived from potential sources of implicit attitudes...
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by ArtGoblin
I was saying that men currently have more freedom than women, so they will be equal when women have the same freedoms as them. Men are treated unequally now - they have better treatment.
I was saying that men currently have more freedom than women, so they will be equal when women have the same freedoms as them. Men are treated unequally now - they have better treatment.
proof of this?
i think the contrary holds.
when i look for internships or scholarships i could apply to, a lot of them are only for women, for example.
Original post by moritzplatz
proof of this?
i think the contrary holds.
when i look for internships or scholarships i could apply to, a lot of them are only for women, for example.
i think the contrary holds.
when i look for internships or scholarships i could apply to, a lot of them are only for women, for example.
FF to 5.00 for examples
Original post by marcusfox
FF to 5.00 for examples
"it doesn't take a majority to prove that you are right"
Original post by marcusfox
Fast forward to 5:00
I can see you are demonstrating typical behaviour shown here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274
I can see you are demonstrating typical behaviour shown here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274
I've seen that video many times before and I never intend to see it again. Most of the 'discrimination' against men is a result of patriarchal society that says that men and women should fit into particular roles. There are positive and negatives to both of these roles but it happens that the subordinate position that women are in entails much more negatives than men experience.
Original post by moritzplatz
proof of this?
i think the contrary holds.
when i look for internships or scholarships i could apply to, a lot of them are only for women, for example.
i think the contrary holds.
when i look for internships or scholarships i could apply to, a lot of them are only for women, for example.
- Women are paid less, and this still stands whether the pay gap is a result of having children or not
- Women do the majority of the domestic chores
- Women are subject to the sexual double standard
- Women hold very few positions of power in comparison to men
- Women are generally judged on their appearance over every other aspect of themselves
- Woman regularly experience sexual harassment and are more likely to be a victim of a sexual attack
- Women are made to feel insecure about their bodies in order to sell products to them
These are just some of the ones I could think of now; there's loads more that I just haven't written down. You can't seriously think a person is better off being born a woman than a man? Scholarships are there to promote women going into fields where they are lacking precisely because there is not many of them as its more difficult for them to overcome certain barriers. A man schoolteacher is more likely to get the job over a female because there is not many men in the profession and they want to increase it.
Original post by ArtGoblin
- Women are paid less, and this still stands whether the pay gap is a result of having children or not
As the data referred to in the video that you do not want to watch anymore, show, this is mainly a cause of women's choices
- Women do the majority of the domestic chores
not necessarily true, nor measurable in an easy way, anyway i am yet to see a woman fixing a broken chair or a loud blender.
- Women are subject to the sexual double standard
men are subject to other kind of cultural prejudices
- Women hold very few positions of power in comparison to men
can't this be due to women being less willing to take risks and responsibilities, on average ?
- Women are generally judged on their appearance over every other aspect of themselves
not every aspect of a man has the same weight, it is maybe not about appearance, but something else
- Woman regularly experience sexual harassment and are more likely to be a victim of a sexual attack
men are more likely to experience other kinds of problems.
- Women are made to feel insecure about their bodies in order to sell products to them
same for men, maybe to a lesser extent.
These are just some of the ones I could think of now; there's loads more that I just haven't written down. You can't seriously think a person is better off being born a woman than a man? Scholarships are there to promote women going into fields where they are lacking precisely because there is not many of them as its more difficult for them to overcome certain barriers. A man schoolteacher is more likely to get the job over a female because there is not many men in the profession and they want to increase it.
- Women are paid less, and this still stands whether the pay gap is a result of having children or not
As the data referred to in the video that you do not want to watch anymore, show, this is mainly a cause of women's choices
- Women do the majority of the domestic chores
not necessarily true, nor measurable in an easy way, anyway i am yet to see a woman fixing a broken chair or a loud blender.
- Women are subject to the sexual double standard
men are subject to other kind of cultural prejudices
- Women hold very few positions of power in comparison to men
can't this be due to women being less willing to take risks and responsibilities, on average ?
- Women are generally judged on their appearance over every other aspect of themselves
not every aspect of a man has the same weight, it is maybe not about appearance, but something else
- Woman regularly experience sexual harassment and are more likely to be a victim of a sexual attack
men are more likely to experience other kinds of problems.
- Women are made to feel insecure about their bodies in order to sell products to them
same for men, maybe to a lesser extent.
These are just some of the ones I could think of now; there's loads more that I just haven't written down. You can't seriously think a person is better off being born a woman than a man? Scholarships are there to promote women going into fields where they are lacking precisely because there is not many of them as its more difficult for them to overcome certain barriers. A man schoolteacher is more likely to get the job over a female because there is not many men in the profession and they want to increase it.
i definitely think a person is better off being born a woman, these days.
(edited 11 years ago)
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