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"Don't take antidepressants, exercise instead"
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Original post by sherlockfan
Yes?
From what
Original post by Ciel.
The thing is, it's usually not effective at all, though. I don't know a single person who truly benefited from exercising (when it comes to depression/anxiety).
Personal acquaintances and anecdotes are poor substitutes for scientific evidence.
An individual never knows whether an intervention has helped them, especially for fluctuating conditions like depression.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Reality Check
Bit of a sweeping statement which I think the majority of people over the age of about 30 would think a bit simplistic and not based in reality. Moreover, the median age for the UK is 40, so you're essentially suggesting that a 'significant number' of half the UK population, or a significant number of 32 million paper are incapable of changing their perspectives and taking in new information. Not very credible, is it?
"Significant" being the operative word, here. Significant meaning a considerable number; a number worth noting. Not all. Not even the majority. Just a large enough amount to be noteworthy. So it's not at all a sweeping statement.
Original post by WoodyMKC
"Significant" being the operative word, here. Significant meaning a considerable number; a number worth noting. Not all. Not even the majority. Just a large enough amount to be noteworthy. So it's not at all a sweeping statement.
I can't see how arbitrarily choosing an age of 40 and saying that a 'large enough number of people to be noteworthy' over that age are incapable of taking in new information is anything other than a sweeping statement. There's no evidence for your claim. I imagine when you get near 40 you'd revise this claim upwards to 'people over the age of 50...'
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by sherlockfan
I honestly have never heard such nonsense in my life...Maybe you need to get your brain tested...
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
Original post by sherlockfan
That depends on what research you choose to follow and what research you choose to ignore. Im sure there's studies out there that show they can work.
And they're often funded by the drug companies producing the anti depressants.
I think OP is being too harsh to their parent. Exercise and healthy lifestyle isn't such a crazy solution, mental health difficulties can really screw with your lifestyle and health (sleep, eating and exercise) and it can become a really vicious cycle as poor nutrition, lack of sleep and lack of exercise can make mental health difficulties way worse. It is hard to exercise regularly if you have poor mental health but people who do it will generally find it very helpful.
Referring to the 'proper' treatment isn't very helpful for anyone because there is no 'proper' treatment, our understanding of mental health is not advanced enough to see someone's mental health and know how to treat it perfectly, at best medication, therapy and everythign else is still stumbling around in the dark trying to get some positive results.
For me personally, I hate psychoactive drugs, they can have horrible side effects and even thigns like SSRIs which aren't intense like anti psychotics can alter the way your body deals with serotonin which can mean they stop being effective long term or you become reliant on them. I think that if a person can find another solution, whether it's therapy, lifestyle, art, anything, then it's better to use that alternative. I don't judge anyone who takes medications, it's a very personal choice to make, but I never will and will always rely on the alternatives. And before anyone says I don't understand mental illness... I do understand and have dealt with severe mental illness myself.
Original post by TSR Mustafa
From what
Wish I knew...The doctors say my heart is fine...But when I'm in severe pain I find it difficult to believe.
Original post by gwaggy
Insults are only used by those not smart enough to formulate an argument.
A drug doesn't work when it doesn't have the effect it was intended for. Any doctor will tell you that. What's more you've pretty much said you're basing all this on personal anectode. You've even said that a car that only goes in reverse 'works'...I don't think it's my argument that's in question here. Your logic is pretty screwed up.
Original post by gwaggy
No you wouldn't, and certainly not at first for most.
Asthma? ... I'd say running is a no-go for them for a very long time at the very least.
Asthma? ... I'd say running is a no-go for them for a very long time at the very least.
I have asthma and run all the time. Unless it's inducing very serious asthma attacks it's advised to get as much exercise as possible, even if it's tough.
Original post by chazwomaq
Personal acquaintances and anecdotes are poor substitutes for scientific evidence.
An individual never knows whether an intervention has helped them, especially for fluctuating conditions like depression.
An individual never knows whether an intervention has helped them, especially for fluctuating conditions like depression.
No scientific evidence supports your claim that exercising can help a person recover from anxiety or depression.
What the hell is wrong with you? Of course a person can tell if something is making them feel better or not.
As someone who takes antidepressants, I don't really see a problem with it.
There is no doubt exercise can be powerful. Saying so is doesn't dimish the condition. Of course medication has a place and the video may be ignorant but it is nothing worse than that. It is not offensive.
It's like someone with 2 diabetes. The medicine can be effective but so can losing weight and improving diet.
Drugs aren't the be all and end all. It's the culture that if you are ill, you need drugs but that isn't necessarily the case.
It's almost like you are judging how I'll people are by the amount of drugs they take.
There is no doubt exercise can be powerful. Saying so is doesn't dimish the condition. Of course medication has a place and the video may be ignorant but it is nothing worse than that. It is not offensive.
It's like someone with 2 diabetes. The medicine can be effective but so can losing weight and improving diet.
Drugs aren't the be all and end all. It's the culture that if you are ill, you need drugs but that isn't necessarily the case.
It's almost like you are judging how I'll people are by the amount of drugs they take.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Ciel.
No scientific evidence supports your claim that exercising can help a person recover from anxiety or depression.
That's just not true. Here is a review from 2004 if you are interested: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/
What the hell is wrong with you? Of course a person can tell if something is making them feel better or not.
Wrong again. One person can never know whether they would have felt better anyway given that the symptoms of depression come and go. You can only establish this through randomized controlled trials and make conclusions at the group level.
Original post by gwaggy
Really? I didn't know. Thanks for the info!
My friends all have such severe asthma they're not allowed to do much at all. They could never do PE in school and if it got too hot in summer, they got very seriously sick and would end up in hospital. I guess growing up with this view of asthma meant I wasn't aware of other people's experiences.
My friends all have such severe asthma they're not allowed to do much at all. They could never do PE in school and if it got too hot in summer, they got very seriously sick and would end up in hospital. I guess growing up with this view of asthma meant I wasn't aware of other people's experiences.
This illustrates well the amount of fail on this thread.
You make a claim, I disprove it with a link to an NHS website based on large amounts of scientific evidence carried out on many thousands of individuals. No response.
You then hear one anecdote from one person (who isn't even talking about themselves) and suddenly you're convinced.
You are far from the only culprit but there is so much 'it didn't help me/my friend so it doesn't work' on this thread, with not a single link to any large study that I can see. There is a legitimate debate to be had here - pharma companies do have substantial perverse incentives and mental health is an area particularly vulnerable to bad research. But this has barely been touched on - just irrelevant anecdote after irrelevant anecdote and some stupid debate about what 'working' means.
Original post by Ciel.
No scientific evidence supports your claim that exercising can help a person recover from anxiety or depression.
What the hell is wrong with you? Of course a person can tell if something is making them feel better or not.
What the hell is wrong with you? Of course a person can tell if something is making them feel better or not.
Absolutely, absolutely untrue on both counts. That is absolutely fundamental science - you can never tell if a) its placebo b) whether any changes observed would have happened anyway, or was due to other factors. The only way to tell is large scale randomised studies.
Its particularly true in depression, which is a long term condition where changes come on very gradually. Generally its said that you haven't given an antidepressant a fair chance if you haven't been taking it for at least 8 weeks, for instance.
Original post by Reality Check
I can't see how arbitrarily choosing an age of 40 and saying that a 'large enough number of people to be noteworthy' over that age are incapable of taking in new information is anything other than a sweeping statement. There's no evidence for your claim. I imagine when you get near 40 you'd revise this claim upwards to 'people over the age of 50...'
There is indeed no evidence, hence me saying "I think" i.e. in my opinion and something that I've noticed and believe to be true. You're the only person in this thread who has taken "In my opinion, there are a large number of people over 40..." to mean "It's a fact that all people over 40...". A sweeping statement would have been me saying that I believe this to be the case regarding ALL people over 40. A large number = some. Not all. "Some" is generally never used in a sweeping statement.
Original post by chazwomaq
That's just not true. Here is a review from 2004 if you are interested: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/
Wrong again. One person can never know whether they would have felt better anyway given that the symptoms of depression come and go. You can only establish this through randomized controlled trials and make conclusions at the group level.
Wrong again. One person can never know whether they would have felt better anyway given that the symptoms of depression come and go. You can only establish this through randomized controlled trials and make conclusions at the group level.
All this review tells you is that exercising can help elevate symptoms of depression. There's nothing about anxiety there. It doesn't say that exercising can help as a long term treatment, either. Because it can't *sigh*
If that was the case, people who do sports regularly wouldn't even get depressed.
And trust me, I can always immediately tell, whenever I feel better, even if it's for a short amount of time.
Original post by nexttime
This illustrates well the amount of fail on this thread.
You make a claim, I disprove it with a link to an NHS website based on large amounts of scientific evidence carried out on many thousands of individuals. No response.
You then hear one anecdote from one person (who isn't even talking about themselves) and suddenly you're convinced.
You are far from the only culprit but there is so much 'it didn't help me/my friend so it doesn't work' on this thread, with not a single link to any large study that I can see. There is a legitimate debate to be had here - pharma companies do have substantial perverse incentives and mental health is an area particularly vulnerable to bad research. But this has barely been touched on - just irrelevant anecdote after irrelevant anecdote and some stupid debate about what 'working' means.
Absolutely, absolutely untrue on both counts. That is absolutely fundamental science - you can never tell if a) its placebo b) whether any changes observed would have happened anyway, or was due to other factors. The only way to tell is large scale randomised studies.
Its particularly true in depression, which is a long term condition where changes come on very gradually. Generally its said that you haven't given an antidepressant a fair chance if you haven't been taking it for at least 8 weeks, for instance.
You make a claim, I disprove it with a link to an NHS website based on large amounts of scientific evidence carried out on many thousands of individuals. No response.
You then hear one anecdote from one person (who isn't even talking about themselves) and suddenly you're convinced.
You are far from the only culprit but there is so much 'it didn't help me/my friend so it doesn't work' on this thread, with not a single link to any large study that I can see. There is a legitimate debate to be had here - pharma companies do have substantial perverse incentives and mental health is an area particularly vulnerable to bad research. But this has barely been touched on - just irrelevant anecdote after irrelevant anecdote and some stupid debate about what 'working' means.
Absolutely, absolutely untrue on both counts. That is absolutely fundamental science - you can never tell if a) its placebo b) whether any changes observed would have happened anyway, or was due to other factors. The only way to tell is large scale randomised studies.
Its particularly true in depression, which is a long term condition where changes come on very gradually. Generally its said that you haven't given an antidepressant a fair chance if you haven't been taking it for at least 8 weeks, for instance.
Oh please, science and psychology don't really mix well. You can't even measure the levels of serotonin in the brain, and they keep going on and on about chemical imbalances. So don't talk about fundamental science when discussing feelings and mental health.
Original post by WoodyMKC
There is indeed no evidence, hence me saying "I think" i.e. in my opinion and something that I've noticed and believe to be true. You're the only person in this thread who has taken "In my opinion, there are a large number of people over 40..." to mean "It's a fact that all people over 40...". A sweeping statement would have been me saying that I believe this to be the case regarding ALL people over 40. A large number = some. Not all. "Some" is generally never used in a sweeping statement.
We're in danger of derailing the OP's thread here. But to be clear, I was careful to quote you accurately. Also, you said originally a 'significant number', not 'large number'. You are not correct to suggest that I took your post to mean 'It's a fact that all people over 40'. What I actually said was:
Original post by Reality Check
...Moreover, the median age for the UK is 40, so you're essentially suggesting that a 'significant number' of half the UK population, or a significant number of 32 million paper are incapable of changing their perspectives and taking in new information.
I stand by my statement that your original suggestion that: "a 'significant' number of people over the age of 40 (=a significant number of 32 million people) are incapable of taking in new information if it goes against what they've already known" is a simplistic generalisation.
Original post by Ciel.
All this review tells you is that exercising can help elevate symptoms of depression. There's nothing about anxiety there.
I never mentioned anxiety but it is also an active area of research. Plenty on google scholar if you are interested.
If that was the case, people who do sports regularly wouldn't even get depressed.
Does not follow. Exercise is good for hypertension and heart health, so people who do sports regularly will never get strokes or heart attacks?
I can always immediately tell, whenever I feel better, even if it's for a short amount of time.
You can tell when you feel better, but you can never be sure of the reason why.
You can't even measure the levels of serotonin in the brain, and they keep going on and on about chemical imbalances.
"Chemical imbalance theory" or low serotonin theory is not in vogue in psychology, although it was in the past.
So don't talk about fundamental science when discussing feelings and mental health.
I think this is what it boils down to. You don't seem to think understanding depression and anxiety has anything to do with science and that feelings trump evidence.
Original post by chazwomaq
I never mentioned anxiety but it is also an active area of research. Plenty on google scholar if you are interested.
Does not follow. Exercise is good for hypertension and heart health, so people who do sports regularly will never get strokes or heart attacks?
You can tell when you feel better, but you can never be sure of the reason why.
"Chemical imbalance theory" or low serotonin theory is not in vogue in psychology, although it was in the past.
I think this is what it boils down to. You don't seem to think understanding depression and anxiety has anything to do with science and that feelings trump evidence.
Does not follow. Exercise is good for hypertension and heart health, so people who do sports regularly will never get strokes or heart attacks?
You can tell when you feel better, but you can never be sure of the reason why.
"Chemical imbalance theory" or low serotonin theory is not in vogue in psychology, although it was in the past.
I think this is what it boils down to. You don't seem to think understanding depression and anxiety has anything to do with science and that feelings trump evidence.
Then why exercising regularly doesn't do **** for me? Why do things just keep getting worse? Obviously, I'm not expecting you to answer that. I just think they're wrong...
Nah, that's not it. The bit in bold. I think it DEFINITELY DOES. But we don't really know enough about it yet, because research into brain/mental illnesses isn't really advanced.
Original post by Ciel.
Then why exercising regularly doesn't do **** for me? Why do things just keep getting worse?
Like I said, you can only make conclusions at the group level, not the individual. Almost all treatments don't work all the time or on everybody.
Sorry to hear about your problems.
Original post by Ciel.
All this review tells you is that exercising can help elevate symptoms of depression. There's nothing about anxiety there. It doesn't say that exercising can help as a long term treatment, either. Because it can't *sigh*
If that was the case, people who do sports regularly wouldn't even get depressed.
And trust me, I can always immediately tell, whenever I feel better, even if it's for a short amount of time.
Oh please, science and psychology don't really mix well. You can't even measure the levels of serotonin in the brain, and they keep going on and on about chemical imbalances. So don't talk about fundamental science when discussing feelings and mental health.
If that was the case, people who do sports regularly wouldn't even get depressed.
And trust me, I can always immediately tell, whenever I feel better, even if it's for a short amount of time.
Oh please, science and psychology don't really mix well. You can't even measure the levels of serotonin in the brain, and they keep going on and on about chemical imbalances. So don't talk about fundamental science when discussing feelings and mental health.
You are really digging yourself into a hole here!
There is loads of evidence for exercise in depression and anxiety. Loads.
If you feel better for a short amount of time that's called being in a good mood. Depression is a long-term problem, and as I've already said, treatments take weeks to work (or to be identified as not working). One or two good or bad days doesn't tell you anything.
Depression very much is in the remit of science and your assertion otherwise is frankly absurd. You really think that the billions of pounds put into antidepressants, psychological therapies, psychiatric clinics, psychiatric inpatient units, is all based on, what, thoughts and feelings? All of it in underpinned by large-scale, extensive evidence.
You can measure serotonin - its an easy blood test. But it doesn't matter - the important science here is that they look at thousands of people, give half the drug and half a placebo and see who does better. The people taking antidepressants do better. Fact.
You really need to reevaluate your position on this because you are totally wrong. Especially the part about mental health issues having nothing to do with science and not requiring evidence.
(edited 7 years ago)
