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Made in the USA
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#561
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#561
(Original post by D-Day)
So your argument is basically "**** you, I'm looking out for number one." How generous.
I'd rather have excellent healthcare for 85% of the population than terrible care for everyone. And given the track record of the government destroying everything it touches, government run healthcare will be poor quality and extremely expensive.
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D-Day
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#562
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#562
So keep your private health insurance. That's not going away.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by D-Day)
So keep your private health insurance. That's not going away.
My insurance company will go likely bankrupt as people leave it and sign up for the public option...and eventually I'll lose my coverage and be forced into the public plan. And I have a healthcare plan that I really like. :woo:

Insurance companies are at a huge disadvantage because they have to run their businesses legally or they go under. They can't print money, can't force non-policyholders to subsidize the people covered under their plan, can't raise taxes, and can't run up trillion dollar deficits the way government can. I don't see how you people think private insurance can survive in an environment like that.

Obama is lying to us when he says we can keep what we have if we like it.
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Captain Haddock
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
We can put a man on the moon in spite of our history of public sector incompetence and mismanagement. European and British space programs are run far better than anything NASA touches.

The Mars Climate Orbiter was a huge loss for this country. It burned up as it approached Mars. It turns out half the engineers working on the navigation numbers were using english units and the other half were using metric units.

NASA forgot to test to landing system of the mars polar lander, so as it was landing, a routine vibration tricked the computers into thinking the craft had already landed. Computers sent a signal to the engines to shut down and the MPL crashed on the surface of Mars, getting completely destroyed.

NASA's Genesis capsule was another really expensive clusterfvck. It collected solar particles and had a parachute so a helicopter could intercept it mid-air and not disturb the particles. The chute never opened though and the Genesis capsule crashed into the ground and was completely destroyed. Why? The Genesis capsule's deceleration sensors were somehow installed backwards!

The Hubble Telescope was only supposed to cost $400 million to construct, but when it was finally completed, it cost over $2.5 billion. Could you imagine a private company missing their targets like that? How long do you think it would stay in business? When the first pictures of the telescope came back, they were a fuzzy mess because of an incorrectly ground mirror. By the time we fixed the problem, costs had ballooned up to 6 billion for this project.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. I think Americans in particular don't know how to nationalize anything and run it correctly. We are REALLY good at business and I wish we were even half as good at government as we were at business. McDonald's is arguably the best run major international company in the world. If Obamacare could be run even 1/2 as well as McDonald's, I'd be the first to sign up for it. It's one thing if they screw up social security, quite another to screw up something as important as healthcare.
Why did you decide to focus on a rhetorical statement I made for effect instead of addressing the actual point of my post that was your healthcare system is amongst the worse in the western world for preventable deaths and is the number one cause of bankruptcy in America?
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KiiNGofLONDON
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#565
I will not be joining this society. :thumbsdown:
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Why did you decide to focus on a rhetorical statement I made for effect instead of addressing the actual point of my post that was your healthcare system is amongst the worse in the western world for preventable deaths and is the number one cause of bankruptcy in America?
I never said the existing system didn't have it's fair share of problems. Every system has more than its fair share of problems. The point I was making is that government intervention can only make things worse. Since polls show that 70-85% of Americans like their system, I think tweaking the existing system is better than a massive overhaul. I think a huge step forward would be allowing for interstate competition amongst insurance companies. Prices would come down pretty dramatically overnight.
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Captain Haddock
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#567
Approval ratings don't say anything about the quality of a service. Of course a lot of people are going to say they're satisfied with their healthcare plan when most of them will never have to use it for anything beyond routine check-ups and occasionally getting a prescription. But what about the hundreds of thousands of people who file for bankruptcy every year in the wake of a giant medical bill? Three quarters of these people, by the way, were insured. Or how about the 20,000 people who die each year from lack of access to healthcare? Who cares if a majority of people claim to be 'satisfied' with a system when every year hundreds of thousands of lives are ruined or ended because that same system ****** them over? Virtually every industrialised nation on Earth has managed to set up some kind of national healthcare system but America can't because apparently only America has incompetent politicians.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Approval ratings don't say anything about the quality of a service. Of course a lot of people are going to say they're satisfied with their healthcare plan when most of them will never have to use it for anything beyond routine check-ups and occasionally getting a prescription. But what about the hundreds of thousands of people who file for bankruptcy every year in the wake of a giant medical bill? Three quarters of these people, by the way, were insured. Or how about the 20,000 people who die each year from lack of access to healthcare? Who cares if a majority of people claim to be 'satisfied' with a system when every year hundreds of thousands of lives are ruined or ended because that same system ****** them over? Virtually every industrialised nation on Earth has managed to set up some kind of national healthcare system but America can't because apparently only America has incompetent politicians.
The guardian is filled with just as many stories of people who got screwed over by your system. No system is perfect, tbh. I think our system is probably as good and as bad as the systems in other countries.

When you go to upstate new york, the emergency rooms of hospitals are filled with canadians who couldn't outlive the waiting lists they were put on for their "free" care. I have never heard of any Americans going to canada for their healthcare, but every year 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists travel to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care. The availability of advanced medical technology and the sophisticated training of physicians are the reasons they come here.

The problems we have can be fixed by tweaking the existing system. The reason costs are so high is because every doctor must carry malpractice insurance which costs them around 100,000 dollars. So they need to pass the expenses of the malpractice insurance onto the patients. Republicans have talked about tort reform for decades, but democrats have been successful at blocking all attempts to put limits on how much people can collect from suing for medical malpractice. We also have state laws that force insurance companies to pay for many things they shouldn't, like acupuncture, toupees, and chiropractors. All of these unnecessary things raise rates by anywhere from 20-50%.
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Captain Crash
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
The guardian is filled with just as many stories of people who got screwed over by your system. No system is perfect, tbh. I think our system is probably as good and as bad as the systems in other countries.
Tbh the healthcare systems in Switzland and the Scandanavian countries (particularly Sweden) are as close to perfect as you can get. Where's the harm in trying to emulate them?
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Don_Scott
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(Original post by Captain Crash)
Tbh the healthcare systems in Switzland and the Scandanavian countries (particularly Sweden) are as close to perfect as you can get. Where's the harm in trying to emulate them?
The Switzerland system is mostly private.
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D-Day
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(Original post by Don_Scott)
The Switzerland system is mostly private.
The "complementary" insurance may be, but the compulsory coverage is not.
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Don_Scott
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(Original post by D-Day)
The "complementary" insurance may be, but the compulsory coverage is not.
Yes, they have compulsary insurance but it is for most people fairly private.
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D-Day
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#573
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#573
(Original post by Don_Scott)
Yes, they have compulsary insurance but it is for most people fairly private.
Source?
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Don_Scott
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#574
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(Original post by D-Day)
Source?
My source is personal experience. I used to live in Switzerland.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Captain Crash)
Tbh the healthcare systems in Switzland and the Scandanavian countries (particularly Sweden) are as close to perfect as you can get. Where's the harm in trying to emulate them?
Funny that you think we should emulate Sweden's system when our media is filled with stories and headlines that say "if we aren't careful, we could wind up as bad as Sweden"

Sweden has rationed health care, with waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery. Americans would never tolerate waiting many months for hip or knee replacement surgery like they do in Sweden.

I've read countless articles on how access to healthcare in Sweden is "third world" (due to long waiting lists) and we should be very careful not to make the same mistakes they did when we reform our system.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555...alth_Care.html
Conclusion

While Sweden is a first world country, its health care system - at least in regards to access - is closer to the third world. Because the health care system is heavily-funded and operated by the government, the system is plagued with waiting lists for surgery. Those waiting lists increase patients' anxiety, pain and risk of death.

Sweden's health care system offers two lessons for the policymakers of the United States. The first is that a single-payer system is not the answer to the problems faced as Americans. Sweden's system does not hold down costs and results in rationing of care. The second lesson is that market-oriented reforms must permit the market to work. Specifically, government should not protect health care providers that fail to provide patients with a quality service from going out of business.

When the United States chooses to reform its health care system, reform should lead to improvement. Reforming along the lines of Sweden would only make our system worse.
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D-Day
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(Original post by Don_Scott)
My source is personal experience. I used to live in Switzerland.
Your opinion is not exactly reputable. I don't mean to insult you or start a pissy fit, but opinions mean squat in a reasoned discussion.
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Don_Scott
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(Original post by D-Day)
Your opinion is not exactly reputable. I don't mean to insult you or start a pissy fit, but opinions mean squat in a reasoned discussion.
It's not a subjective thing. I have seen how the system in Switzerlas is like first hand. You can not believe me if you want, I don't care.
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D-Day
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(Original post by Don_Scott)
It's not a subjective thing. I have seen how the system in Switzerlas is like first hand. You can not believe me if you want, I don't care.
That's useless. If what you say is true, you should be able to find it somewhere on the Internet. And before you say that if I care so much I should find it, it's not my job to prove your argument.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by D-Day)
That's useless. If what you say is true, you should be able to find it somewhere on the Internet. And before you say that if I care so much I should find it, it's not my job to prove your argument.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Why are you asking for a source for something so absurdly easy to find? Don't be lazy, we all have broadband (I hope) and the wiki article on the very first hit explains everything.
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D-Day
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I read that. I read that there is compulsory coverage as well as complimentary private insurance. What I did not find was a statement to the effect that "the Switzerland system is mostly private." So again I say "source?"
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