The Student Room Group

Have the Tories stopped being Conservative?

There was a time when you knew what conservatism was all about. Cutting services, building roads, cutting taxes and generally looking after the gentrified home counties whilst pretending to speak for the working man of the north.

But it is no longer about that. I have been following the conference and it all seems to be about ideology. It is about being afraid of "them" (insert immigrant, Muslim, wokerati, liberal leftie, trans-gender, BLM, environmentalist).

Where as on the one the one had this is something relatively new to British mainstream politics and no doubt refreshing and exciting and liberating to some, I can't help feel that as soon as politicians start preaching about us vs. "them" [undefined but scary] we run the risk of baring pitch forks and going into a very dark place. No doubt Germany didn't see this coming either?

Thoughts?
The Conservative Party are still fundamentally Conservative in that their underlying goal is the preservation of existing economic and social structures, they just seem to have largely abandoned their focus on limited government, low taxes and free enterprise. This isn't new, it is a trend that has been growing over the last 13 years.

To fill this vacuum, the loud voices that are emerging are taking their intellectual inspiration from second rate own-the-libs American conservative grifters. In a way, it is just traditional social conservative wrapped up slightly differently (the decades long fight to change attitudes on gay people is testament to this).

It will backfire. Targeting marginal groups goes down with hardcore conservatives but the majority of people are far more concerned with taxes and public services than which bathroom someone uses.

I can see Suella Braverman becoming Conservative leader once the electorate kick the party into opposition. Her policy positions and procurements over the last year having nothing to do with improving the country but are simply her attempt to put herself in that position. This will likely be a period when the Conservative are unelectable.
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 2
Original post by Gazpacho.
The Conservative Party are still fundamentally Conservative in that their underlying goal is the preservation of existing economic and social structures, they just seem to have largely abandoned their focus on limited government, low taxes and free enterprise. This isn't new, it is a trend that has been growing over the last 13 years.

To fill this vacuum, the loud voices that are emerging are taking their intellectual inspiration from second rate own-the-libs American conservative grifters. In a way, it is just traditional social conservative wrapped up slightly differently (the decades long fight to change attitudes on gay people is testament to this).

It will backfire. Targeting marginal groups goes down with hardcore conservatives but the majority of people are far more concerned with taxes and public services than which bathroom someone uses.

I can see Suella Braverman becoming Conservative leader once the electorate kick the party into opposition. Her policy positions and procurements over the last year having nothing to do with improving the country but are simply her attempt to put herself in that position. This will likely be a period when the Conservative are unelectable.

I'm not convinced. I don't think the average voter is that fussed about taxes. A 1% reduction in my tax bill gives me something like £30 a month extra. Whoop-de-do! It sounds good but the reality is neither here nor there.

The problem I have is the talk on immigration. I am starting to come around to the fact that something needs to happen and I as about as liberal leftie as they come. For those a little more hard line, I can see pretty horrendous policies being popular and then normalised and before we know it is perfectly acceptable to marginalise <insert minority group here> without a second thought. I am not sure I like that.
Original post by hotpud
I'm not convinced. I don't think the average voter is that fussed about taxes. A 1% reduction in my tax bill gives me something like £30 a month extra. Whoop-de-do! It sounds good but the reality is neither here nor there.

The problem I have is the talk on immigration. I am starting to come around to the fact that something needs to happen and I as about as liberal leftie as they come. For those a little more hard line, I can see pretty horrendous policies being popular and then normalised and before we know it is perfectly acceptable to marginalise <insert minority group here> without a second thought. I am not sure I like that.


You may not notice it, but other people certainly do notice fiscal drag when it occurs in combination with the long term trend in real wage stagnation, rising costs of basic goods, mortgage costs, etc. Then people ask themselves why are they being pummelled with taxes in return for garbage public services. This is central to around why The Conservatives are on course for a humiliating electoral defeat.
The trend we are seeing with the Conservative Party is genuinely worrying to me. They have fully embraced toxic rhetoric about immigration, human rights, etc. They have even embraced wild, ridiculous conspiracy theories like "15 Minute Cities" and something about people needing 7 wheelie bins? It's the sort of divisive, conspiratorial rhetoric that is seen in US politics.

I worry that they will miraculously claw their way back up the opinion polls and win the next election. Can we survive another 5 years of **** government and mismanagement?
Original post by SHallowvale
The trend we are seeing with the Conservative Party is genuinely worrying to me. They have fully embraced toxic rhetoric about immigration, human rights, etc. They have even embraced wild, ridiculous conspiracy theories like "15 Minute Cities" and something about people needing 7 wheelie bins? It's the sort of divisive, conspiratorial rhetoric that is seen in US politics.

I worry that they will miraculously claw their way back up the opinion polls and win the next election. Can we survive another 5 years of **** government and mismanagement?


The whole 15 minute cities is nuts. How we have gone from an approach to city planning centred around decentralising amenities to limit the blight of cars clogging up cities to a wild conspiracy theory about controlling our lives.

The only reason the Conservatives are leaning into this is one of many of their target voters are boomers who rely on Facebook for their politics..
Original post by Gazpacho.
The whole 15 minute cities is nuts. How we have gone from an approach to city planning centred around decentralising amenities to limit the blight of cars clogging up cities to a wild conspiracy theory about controlling our lives.

The only reason the Conservatives are leaning into this is one of many of their target voters are boomers who rely on Facebook for their politics..

It's one of those things where all I can do is laugh, else it becomes extremely frustrating and I start pulling my hair out. :s-smilie:

You're right about why they are doing this, but what if it works? What if we have a Conservative victory in 2024 backed by hard right rhetoric and conspiracy theories? I can genuinely see it happening.
Original post by hotpud
I'm not convinced. I don't think the average voter is that fussed about taxes. A 1% reduction in my tax bill gives me something like £30 a month extra. Whoop-de-do! It sounds good but the reality is neither here nor there.

Much depends on what the tax cut (or increase) involves.

You are a teacher. Your profession recently engaged in strike action only to settle, in the end, for a below inflation pay increase and no guarantee of improvement in working conditions. Income Tax thresholds have been frozen until 2028. By that time, fiscal drag will have pushed very many teachers into the higher (40%) tax band, with or without any further pay increases. You'll certainly notice that.
Reply 8
Original post by Supermature
Much depends on what the tax cut (or increase) involves.

You are a teacher. Your profession recently engaged in strike action only to settle, in the end, for a below inflation pay increase and no guarantee of improvement in working conditions. Income Tax thresholds have been frozen until 2028. By that time, fiscal drag will have pushed very many teachers into the higher (40%) tax band, with or without any further pay increases. You'll certainly notice that.


Well yes and no. My point is that if Kwarteng had got his way I would have seen a 1% reduction in income tax. I would not be better off for that.

Oh - and point of order. I work in a 6th form college. We are yet to receive a pay offer. Just saying like. But hey ho - its ok because we are also likely to implement a total rehaul of 6th form study too! Yay!

And we are still on strike. Apparently we voted for action short of striking. So we will be making angry faces every time we see our head! Seriously - you couldn't make it up!

Isn't a good job there are people in the world who still have principals. Maybe we should be more conservative and act like economic units leaving the profession en-mass to pursue riches elsewhere... wait - that is exactly what is happening.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by hotpud
Well yes and no. My point is that if Kwarteng had got his way I would have seen a 1% reduction in income tax. I would not be better off for that.

Oh - and point of order. I work in a 6th form college. We are yet to receive a pay offer. Just saying like. But hey ho - its ok because we are also likely to implement a total rehaul of 6th form study too! Yay!

And we are still on strike. Apparently we voted for action short of striking. So we will be making angry faces every time we see our head! Seriously - you couldn't make it up!

Isn't a good job there are people in the world who still have principals. Maybe we should be more conservative and act like economic units leaving the profession en-mass to pursue riches elsewhere... wait - that is exactly what is happening.

That's interesting. Up to now, you've been reluctant to reveal the age group you teach.

The burdens placed on teachers at all levels are disgraceful, as is the failure to offer a salary commensurate with the responsibilities of the job. Much of the blame can be attributed to the marketisation of state education, which began under 'New Labour' in the early 2000's. That said, the Conservatives have been in power since 2010 and things have got considerably worse.

Sadly, I am not optimistic about the prospects for improvements in the event of a Labour victory at the next election. The UK's economy is in a far more parlous state than most politicians dare to acknowledge and whoever is in power is going to have to make some really tough decisions. But our young people are our future and their education deserves to be among the highest of priorities. Without well qualified and well motivated teachers, no amount of tinkering with the curriculum or the examination system will make any appreciable difference.

As for a 1% reduction in Income Tax, I could not agree more. It is the freezing of the 40% threshold that gives me the greatest cause for concern as it means that with National Insurance and pension contributions added the value of any pay rise is more than halved - and the thresholds have been frozen until 2028.

Good luck, and many thanks to the dedicated professionals like you who have chosen to stick with such vital work despite all the negativity that you have to face, day in and day out.
Reply 10
I don't think that is true. All that has happened is that control of running schools has moved from councils to schools themselves which on the whole is a good thing because schools can now react much faster to the needs of their pupils. Rather than having to wait for the wheels of bureaucracy to turn they can just do it. Businesses that do get involved generally buy a name but that is about it. They certainly don't govern curriculum bar a few well known left-field schools which will come and go just like educational experiments of the past.

I agree Labour won't make a huge difference but it is the arrogance of Tory education ministers that gets our back. The Tories don't give a stuff about education because they all use private schools and Rishi's noble aim to change 6th form education probably has more to do with creating more valuable economic units to work in Tory backed business that a more altruistic desire to further the ambition of our youngsters.
Original post by hotpud
I don't think that is true. All that has happened is that control of running schools has moved from councils to schools themselves which on the whole is a good thing because schools can now react much faster to the needs of their pupils. Rather than having to wait for the wheels of bureaucracy to turn they can just do it. Businesses that do get involved generally buy a name but that is about it. They certainly don't govern curriculum bar a few well known left-field schools which will come and go just like educational experiments of the past.

I agree Labour won't make a huge difference but it is the arrogance of Tory education ministers that gets our back. The Tories don't give a stuff about education because they all use private schools and Rishi's noble aim to change 6th form education probably has more to do with creating more valuable economic units to work in Tory backed business that a more altruistic desire to further the ambition of our youngsters.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you about academisation - but that's another debate. I do agree with your statement that "Labour won't make a huge difference". The real problem is that whoever wins the next election will face enormous economic challenges and there will only be limited room for manoeuvre when it comes to public spending. I suspect that we would both hope that spending on education is seen as a top priority.
Apropos your opening post:

Original post by hotpud
There was a time when you knew what conservatism was all about. Cutting services, building roads, cutting taxes and generally looking after the gentrified home counties whilst pretending to speak for the working man of the north.

But it is no longer about that. I have been following the conference and it all seems to be about ideology. It is about being afraid of "them" (insert immigrant, Muslim, wokerati, liberal leftie, trans-gender, BLM, environmentalist).

Where as on the one the one had this is something relatively new to British mainstream politics and no doubt refreshing and exciting and liberating to some, I can't help feel that as soon as politicians start preaching about us vs. "them" [undefined but scary] we run the risk of baring pitch forks and going into a very dark place. No doubt Germany didn't see this coming either?

Thoughts?

This is part of a trend that we see across Europe and (in a different but related way) in the US. To quote from an article that is now slightly out of date, but still relevant:

"..the willingness of traditional conservative parties to cozy up to the far right. From Sweden, where a conservative leader gets support from the far-right Sweden Democrats, to Finland, where the right-wing populist Finns Party is in power, more extreme parties are getting a chance to help govern, even if in diluted form."
https://www.politico.eu/article/far-right-giorgia-meloni-europe-swings-right-and-reshapes-the-eu/

So it is here. As we have single-member plurality (first-past-the-post) voting all these right-wing trends are simply absorbed by the Conservative Party (though for electoral reasons, some are also adopted by the left). The UK Conservative Party's distinctive combination of laissez-faire economics and maintenance of the existing social structure remains as part of the mix. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!
Reply 13
Original post by Supermature
I'm afraid I can't agree with you about academisation - but that's another debate. I do agree with your statement that "Labour won't make a huge difference". The real problem is that whoever wins the next election will face enormous economic challenges and there will only be limited room for manoeuvre when it comes to public spending. I suspect that we would both hope that spending on education is seen as a top priority.


Well, having worked under the academised system and having kids in a council run school I can definitely see the difference and it ain't in favour of council run.

Teachers don't ask for much. Acknowledgement, gratitude and appreciation go a long way. The Tories don't understand any of these concepts because they don't have anything to do with money.
Yes to some extent.

I’m hopeful that labour can make the country a better place but I partially doubt that this will happen because of Starmer.
Original post by hotpud
Well, having worked under the academised system and having kids in a council run school I can definitely see the difference and it ain't in favour of council run.

Teachers don't ask for much. Acknowledgement, gratitude and appreciation go a long way. The Tories don't understand any of these concepts because they don't have anything to do with money.

As I said, we shall have to agree to differ on the subject of academy schools. It has little direct relevance to the title of your thread and only arose in the context of your response to my comment about the marketisation of state education, which was started under "New Labour" and eagerly adopted by the Conservatives. I only mentioned it to highlight what little difference there is between the two main parties. However, if you wish to start a thread on the topic in the Educational Debate forum I would be delighted to contribute!
Reply 16
Original post by hotpud
There was a time when you knew what conservatism was all about. Cutting services, building roads, cutting taxes and generally looking after the gentrified home counties whilst pretending to speak for the working man of the north.

But it is no longer about that. I have been following the conference and it all seems to be about ideology. It is about being afraid of "them" (insert immigrant, Muslim, wokerati, liberal leftie, trans-gender, BLM, environmentalist).

Where as on the one the one had this is something relatively new to British mainstream politics and no doubt refreshing and exciting and liberating to some, I can't help feel that as soon as politicians start preaching about us vs. "them" [undefined but scary] we run the risk of baring pitch forks and going into a very dark place. No doubt Germany didn't see this coming either?

Thoughts?


imo, its very clear that they are trying to drum up/mobilize a voter base for the next election because they know that the conservative party is unpopular right now. Similar to what someone like Trump did before his election, they're creating these very specific enemies/culture war issues that they believe the electorate will be passionate about (immigration, lgbt+ people, etc) but what I think is really strange is that they seem to really misunderstand why people like Trump get so popular.

Trump was able to rile up his base so much because voters were dissatisfied with the outcome of the previous governments' policies - Obama used language like "hope" and "change" but by 2016 many Americans' lives didn't look that different, and Trump was seen as this figure who would come in and shake everything up. He was seen as being anti-establishment, he was going to "drain the swamp" or whatever. But the UK Conservatives aren't Trump - they're Obama. They're the government everyone is dissatisfied with. Really confuses me why they're employing this rhetoric now and not in half a decade when Keir Starmer will probably be on his way out for much of the same reasons that the Democrats were on their way out in 2016.
(edited 12 months ago)
Original post by Gazpacho.
The whole 15 minute cities is nuts. How we have gone from an approach to city planning centred around decentralising amenities to limit the blight of cars clogging up cities to a wild conspiracy theory about controlling our lives.

The only reason the Conservatives are leaning into this is one of many of their target voters are boomers who rely on Facebook for their politics..


This isn't america most important facilities are within a 15-20 min walk for most people 30 minutes walking at most.

In some places like paris and rome its 5 - 10 mins

We dont need 15 minute cities in europe

Quick Reply