Is a degree in &#x27;Mathematics with Finance and Accounting&#x27; good?

What grades are you targeting? Any particular universities you are considering?

Reply 2

OP

Original post by ajj2000

What grades are you targeting? Any particular universities you are considering?

I really want to go to Queen Mary University of London

OP

bump

Original post by beatricehalley

I really want to go to Queen Mary University of London

Sounds great! I'll have a look at the two courses and write a note tomorrow.

Reply 5

Universities Forum Helper

By the way - its well worth looking through @MindMax2000 post history. I recall he(?) has written some extensive notes about accounting degrees vs STEM.

Reply 6

MindMax2000

21

Original post by beatricehalley

I don't know if I should go for a straight BSc Mathematics degree or the one that says BSc Mathematics with Finance and Accounting? I like the topics explored in Finance and Accounting however I don't know how employers will look at me differently...

As in will the latter make me look too vague & broad and less impressive considering it's made up of three disciplines rather than honing my maths and sticking to just a straight forward BSc Mathematics degree? Or am I overthinking it since they are related anyways.

Thanks for the mention @ajj2000.

I think I have answered one of your threads before @beatricehalley.

I have compared the maths degree and the maths with finance and accounting degree. Both degrees can in principle allow you to cover half of the degree in maths and the other half in finance/accounting if you max out the financial electives in the maths degree (you won't be able to do accounting modules in the math degree though) i.e. the split between finance and maths is pretty even for both degrees, but you get the added benefit of calling your degree a straight maths degree vs one that includes finance and accounting in the title.
https://www.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/coursefinder/courses/2024/mathematics/
https://www.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/coursefinder/courses/2024/mathematics-with-finance-and-accounting/

Personally, if I did maths and then opt to do accounting, I might find the accounting modules a bit too easy in terms of the quantitative material. However, that's just me.
If you did the joint accounting degree, you might get a few exemptions if you passed all the accounting modules with high enough grades. However, that's a pretty minor point considering you do 13-15 papers in any single professional qualification and it doesn't really give you an advantage in job applications for accounting roles. If you studied the professional accounting qualification from scratch, you can pass the same modules within the first 3-6 months/in 2 exam cycles.

Just for fun, I was looking at another maths+finance degree:
https://www.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/coursefinder/courses/2024/financial-mathematics/
This is a little funny because it's essentially the maths degree above but with all the finance modules maxed out. However, this degree has a higher grade requirement than the maths degree.

I like the topics explored in Finance and Accounting however I don't know how employers will look at me differently
It depends on what you specifically want to do after uni.
If you're specifically looking to go into say mathematical researc, accounting research, or financial research, then possibly.
If you're going for a role in accounting, then it wouldn't matter which degree you did. Having said that, ajj2000 would probably be the better person to advise you on accounting jobs than I could.
If you're going for an actuary role, you're more likely better off doing the maths degree.
If you're going for a role in quants, then I don't think it's going to be that much of an issue because with any of these you can do the CQF. Having said that, I think the maths degree alone would provide you with an adequate foundation for quants as it is.

Without knowing more about what you specifically want, it's going to be difficult to advise.

Reply 7

OP

Original post by MindMax2000

Without knowing more about what you specifically want, it's going to be difficult to advise.

I'm so grateful to have you back to help me again! I actually don't remember the last time it was. I just remembered ajj too haha.

Yeah so essentially I know that I am good at Maths and I don't want to close off any quantitative jobs that require it. My expectations for a job or career right now are maybe accounting, maybe auditing or something in data analysis or data science still need to do more research on these jobs. I mainly just want to have a job that has some structure to it where I can work and then come home and forget about it (unlike what I hear from marketing jobs) however I know that it isn't always going to be like that with my rose tinted glasses, the same way I don't expect these jobs to cater to an introverted person. I also don't really care how 'boring' the job is. It doesn't have to be really fulfilling to me because I like to find ways outside of work to fulfil myself creatively speaking. Tbh if I'm good at the job that is fulfilling enough in the first place.

So I went with a Maths degree at first because I know that all those doors will be open to me and I enjoy doing calculations in my head. But then I looked at the Finance and Accounting joint degree with maths because I thought that it might be more of the fun maths stuff and expose me earlier on to these types of fields.

EDIT: I'm just kinda worried if one will close more doors than the other for the stem jobs. I don't really plan on going into research tho.

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 8

Just to check - is your interest in QM the specific course or that it allows you to commute and is in the right location?

Just refreshing my memory about QM accounting courses (outside of the Flying Start one before someone dives in...).

Reply 9

OP

Original post by ajj2000

Just to check - is your interest in QM the specific course or that it allows you to commute and is in the right location?

Just refreshing my memory about QM accounting courses (outside of the Flying Start one before someone dives in...).

Both actually.

Reply 10

Original post by MindMax2000

Just for fun, I was looking at another maths+finance degree:
https://www.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/coursefinder/courses/2024/financial-mathematics/
This is a little funny because it's essentially the maths degree above but with all the finance modules maxed out. However, this degree has a higher grade requirement than the maths degree.

Interestingly it seems to only be available as a 4 year (Msci) option although the first year appears to be common with the maths with management degree.

Reply 11

CWharfian

6

Have a read through the ALevel guide on the Canary Wharfian website, some good advice there re which subject to study at uni to maximise your chances of breaking in. Also, there is plenty of other good advice there that you could use

Reply 12

OP

Original post by ajj2000

Interestingly it seems to only be available as a 4 year (Msci) option although the first year appears to be common with the maths with management degree.

Yes that does seem a bit weird lol.

In the end what would your advise be for someone like me?

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 13

Original post by beatricehalley

Yes that does seem a bit weird lol.

In the end what would your advise be for someone like me?

Still looking at the courses for pros and cons. Also comparing with the equivalent courses at Exeter. Interestingly Exeter seem to have changed their Maths with A+F recently so possibly there are some issues with trying to incorporate a percentage of non maths classes while retaining a robust maths degree.

My impression is that if I were interested in doing a maths degree I would check out what maths degrees entail and if still interested do a straight maths or maths plus stats degree. If you really don't like the idea of doing proofs etc perhaps consider related alternatives (physics with data science at QM would be an example).

That's not to say that I couldn't see benefits in the maths plus A+F course, or circumstances where such a course would be a great option. However I think the access to and range of jobs in London is such that it wouldn't be likely to be a benefit.

Will try to make some observations - would really need someone with a maths degree to advise - hopefully you can post some related questions in maths specific forums.

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 14

Universities Forum Helper

So, to have a go at asking the questions asked in the opening post I've had a look at the courses on the QMUL website.

"Is a degree in 'Mathematics with Finance and Accounting' good?"

Yes - it sounds like a very good degree. With some unusual/ less offered combinations you do need to look and check that the course makes sense/ isn't just a mismatch of different subjects put together to appeal to prospective students. I've seen some maths/ accounting courses which looked a bit of a mess. From what I can gain from looking through the QM website the course you are referring to looks fine.

I think it would open doors as a maths degree, a highly quantitative degree, and give some background in accountancy should you wish to pursue associated careers. Some knowledge of accountancy may be of value in any managerial career.

As such I don't think its really a question of whether one course is good and the other not good - more a question of which you prefer and which might be better.

Just to pick up a later point you made:

"As in will the latter make me look too vague & broad and less impressive considering it's made up of three disciplines rather than honing my maths..."

Often prospective students look at accounting and finance degrees and belief it is a joint honours - finance and accounting. That isn't really how almost all of the degrees work. Its more of a single subject called 'finance and accounting. That being said if we take the non maths courses each year (I'm taking this directly from the website which doesn't indicate whether the individual subjects each year have different weighting):

Year one: 6 courses, 2 non maths - 'economics for business management' and 'financial accounting'

Year two: 5 compulsory courses - 2 non maths - 'introduction to finance' and 'managerial accounting'. All the optional papers appear to be maths based.

Year three: courses on financial markets and financial maths.

As such the A+F elements of the course appear much more focussed on finance subjects than basic accounting - in fact there is basically no more accounting than on the maths with management course.

With that in mind I'm not clear on how many if any exemptions from professional exams (basically ACCA) would be gained through this course. Its not noted on the ACCA website and the main A+F degree at QM is pretty light on professional exemptions. Not a reason not to take a course but it does seem to lack one of the advantages - possibly the university could confirm the position.

"I don't know if I should go for a straight BSc Mathematics degree or the one that says BSc Mathematics with Finance and Accounting? I like the topics explored in Finance and Accounting however I don't know how employers will look at me differently...

As in will the latter make me look too vague & broad and less impressive considering it's made up of three disciplines rather than honing my maths and sticking to just a straight forward BSc Mathematics degree?"

From what I can gather the maths related degrees work in two routes at QMUL:

- maths, and maths and stats - common first year and nearly identical second years (depending on one optional course in stats). Can lead to an MSci maths should you wish to pursue that route

- the financial maths, maths with fin/acc and maths with management - slightly different maths courses plus the minor subjects.

So - for the maths component the first year courses on the main maths degree are:

Introduction to Algebra - not part of the maths with fin/ acc but is an option in the second year
Introduction to Analysis with Calculus - the maths with fin/ acc replaces this with 'applied calculus'
Numbers, Sets and Functions - also on the maths with fin/ acc
Probability and Statistics - the maths with fin/ acc replaces this with 'applied probability and statistics'
Programming in Python I - not part of the maths with fin/ acc but is an option in the second year
Vectors and Matrices - also on the maths with fin/ acc

I think from this it would appear that the maths with x courses are less pure maths based. In addition losing the 'programming in python' course seems like a real loss.

I think the same extends to second and third year courses.

So - considerations:

- would you prefer a more pure maths focussed course or something more applied? Different people have different preferences.
- Does not taking as much hardcore maths early on make later maths courses harder or in practice reduce the number of optional modules it would be advisable to chose from?
- if not on a pathway with an option for an Msci additional year is this an opportunity forgone or no big deal?

"Or am I overthinking it since they are related anyways."

I don't think you are - I think there are significant enough differences to be worth looking into.

I think you might consider:

- attending open days or arranging to speak with the department to better understand the differences.

- speaking with current students (ideally in the 3rd or Msci years) to see what their experiences have been and how they and their course maths find the courses. Do they prefer to do less rather than more of the more traditional maths courses? Do they find the later specialist courses tougher without doing the full maths curriculum?

Unfortunately I couldn't see a way to get more details about each of the courses taken within the degrees. However I think it would be worth asking on one of the maths forums to see if some who studies maths can provide some insight.

Reply 15

MindMax2000

21

Original post by beatricehalley

I'm so grateful to have you back to help me again! I actually don't remember the last time it was. I just remembered ajj too haha.

Yeah so essentially I know that I am good at Maths and I don't want to close off any quantitative jobs that require it. My expectations for a job or career right now are maybe accounting, maybe auditing or something in data analysis or data science still need to do more research on these jobs. I mainly just want to have a job that has some structure to it where I can work and then come home and forget about it (unlike what I hear from marketing jobs) however I know that it isn't always going to be like that with my rose tinted glasses, the same way I don't expect these jobs to cater to an introverted person. I also don't really care how 'boring' the job is. It doesn't have to be really fulfilling to me because I like to find ways outside of work to fulfil myself creatively speaking. Tbh if I'm good at the job that is fulfilling enough in the first place.

So I went with a Maths degree at first because I know that all those doors will be open to me and I enjoy doing calculations in my head. But then I looked at the Finance and Accounting joint degree with maths because I thought that it might be more of the fun maths stuff and expose me earlier on to these types of fields.

EDIT: I'm just kinda worried if one will close more doors than the other for the stem jobs. I don't really plan on going into research tho.

@ajj2000's breakdown of the degrees is on point.

In terms of quantitative jobs....
Accounting and auditing aren't really all that quantitative. If you use A Level Maths as a benchmark, accounting and auditing use GCSE level maths more than A Level i.e. you would never come across calculus, sequences, complex numbers, or matrices in accounting and auditing, at least in practice (you use more of these in finance).
Data analysis and data science use more stats that anything else. Nothing particularly revelationary, although if you use the stats in the right way they can move mountains in organisations.

There aren't really that many jobs that uses at least A Level difficulty in maths, since a lot of things in life doesn't require much above GCSE level unless it's particularly niched.
Having said that, it's worth looking into the following:

1.

Bioinformatics (health informatics and physical sciences - NHS) - essentially using stats and monitor health; however, you can also get uni researchers in biological mathematics, which is still under bioinformatics

2.

Mathematical research

3.

MORSE - still research at uni that involves economics and stats

4.

Teaching maths at college level or higher

5.

Physicist/Chemist - mostly theoretical physicist/chemist (if chemist, it's more like quantum physics or chemical physics)

6.

Economist - more so economics modelling (mathematical economics) as opposed to a standard economist because a standard economist will look more at stats

7.

Engineering - more on theory/research than on the practical side, because in practice you use computers to do your calculations

8.

Financial research - more at uni since financial research (i.e. financial mathematics) outside uni involves more accounting

9.

Actuary - applied financial mathematics; pretty much the go to for maths grads if they don't want to go into a STEM role

10.

Quantitative analyst - essentially using financial stats and programming to make trades automatically

Also note, you don't specifically need a degree in accounting or finance to get into the financial industry or in accounting roles. These would require the appropriate qualifications for the role. Other than actuary or quants, you aren't going to come across that much difficult maths in these roles.

Do also note, for whatever reason you feel a sudden need to do a master's degree in bioinformatics or finance (you won't to get into either fields in industry), you can do so with a straight maths degree. If you want to get into economics, you would need to do a conversion course to get onto the quantitative economics degrees after the maths degree. You will unfortunately not be able to get into engineering and physics/chemistry degrees with a maths degree (although computer science and software engineering degrees are usually fine).

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 16

I believe that you could get onto a masters / phd in physics with a maths degree?

Should also add to @MindMax2000 list that a lot of maths grads work in IT/ programming type jobs. The degree probably isn't necessary for the job but does seem to be highly desirable to employers. Likewise a lot of maths grads work within marketing departments. The huge thing missing from the list is statistics which is very much an in demand and growing field. Also opportunities in consultancy - again any degree might be acceptable but maths graduates seem to punch above their weight. Specific banking fields you might want to look into would include risk management.

Reply 17

OP

Original post by ajj2000

So, to have a go at asking the questions asked in the opening post I've had a look at the courses on the QMUL website.

"Is a degree in 'Mathematics with Finance and Accounting' good?"

Yes - it sounds like a very good degree. With some unusual/ less offered combinations you do need to look and check that the course makes sense/ isn't just a mismatch of different subjects put together to appeal to prospective students. I've seen some maths/ accounting courses which looked a bit of a mess. From what I can gain from looking through the QM website the course you are referring to looks fine.

I think it would open doors as a maths degree, a highly quantitative degree, and give some background in accountancy should you wish to pursue associated careers. Some knowledge of accountancy may be of value in any managerial career.

As such I don't think its really a question of whether one course is good and the other not good - more a question of which you prefer and which might be better.

Just to pick up a later point you made:

"As in will the latter make me look too vague & broad and less impressive considering it's made up of three disciplines rather than honing my maths..."

Often prospective students look at accounting and finance degrees and belief it is a joint honours - finance and accounting. That isn't really how almost all of the degrees work. Its more of a single subject called 'finance and accounting. That being said if we take the non maths courses each year (I'm taking this directly from the website which doesn't indicate whether the individual subjects each year have different weighting):

Year one: 6 courses, 2 non maths - 'economics for business management' and 'financial accounting'

Year two: 5 compulsory courses - 2 non maths - 'introduction to finance' and 'managerial accounting'. All the optional papers appear to be maths based.

Year three: courses on financial markets and financial maths.

As such the A+F elements of the course appear much more focussed on finance subjects than basic accounting - in fact there is basically no more accounting than on the maths with management course.

With that in mind I'm not clear on how many if any exemptions from professional exams (basically ACCA) would be gained through this course. Its not noted on the ACCA website and the main A+F degree at QM is pretty light on professional exemptions. Not a reason not to take a course but it does seem to lack one of the advantages - possibly the university could confirm the position.

"I don't know if I should go for a straight BSc Mathematics degree or the one that says BSc Mathematics with Finance and Accounting? I like the topics explored in Finance and Accounting however I don't know how employers will look at me differently...

As in will the latter make me look too vague & broad and less impressive considering it's made up of three disciplines rather than honing my maths and sticking to just a straight forward BSc Mathematics degree?"

From what I can gather the maths related degrees work in two routes at QMUL:

- maths, and maths and stats - common first year and nearly identical second years (depending on one optional course in stats). Can lead to an MSci maths should you wish to pursue that route

- the financial maths, maths with fin/acc and maths with management - slightly different maths courses plus the minor subjects.

So - for the maths component the first year courses on the main maths degree are:

Introduction to Algebra - not part of the maths with fin/ acc but is an option in the second year
Introduction to Analysis with Calculus - the maths with fin/ acc replaces this with 'applied calculus'
Numbers, Sets and Functions - also on the maths with fin/ acc
Probability and Statistics - the maths with fin/ acc replaces this with 'applied probability and statistics'
Programming in Python I - not part of the maths with fin/ acc but is an option in the second year
Vectors and Matrices - also on the maths with fin/ acc

I think from this it would appear that the maths with x courses are less pure maths based. In addition losing the 'programming in python' course seems like a real loss.

I think the same extends to second and third year courses.

So - considerations:

- would you prefer a more pure maths focussed course or something more applied? Different people have different preferences.
- Does not taking as much hardcore maths early on make later maths courses harder or in practice reduce the number of optional modules it would be advisable to chose from?
- if not on a pathway with an option for an Msci additional year is this an opportunity forgone or no big deal?

"Or am I overthinking it since they are related anyways."

I don't think you are - I think there are significant enough differences to be worth looking into.

I think you might consider:

- attending open days or arranging to speak with the department to better understand the differences.

- speaking with current students (ideally in the 3rd or Msci years) to see what their experiences have been and how they and their course maths find the courses. Do they prefer to do less rather than more of the more traditional maths courses? Do they find the later specialist courses tougher without doing the full maths curriculum?

Unfortunately I couldn't see a way to get more details about each of the courses taken within the degrees. However I think it would be worth asking on one of the maths forums to see if some who studies maths can provide some insight.

Thanks a billion for breaking this down so thoroughly for me. I can't believe there is a kind soul out there that is willing to do that for someone like me. I appreciate this incredibly!

Yeah so I think I might prefer more applied maths over pure maths but I wouldn't really mind the pure stuff regardless. I guess it would help to talk to some students who were on the Mathematics with Finance and Accounting course to see if it made it harder to choose certain modules.

In the end my fear of missing out on more 'stem' positions was just false as it appears regardless of what I choose the maths component is still there should I want to go down that route instead of the more business/finance stuff.

(edited 7 months ago)

Reply 18

You could ask your local library to reserve some books which might give some background:

Lara Adcock - 'How to Study for a Maths Degree' is often recommended. 'Mathematics Rebooted: A Fresh Approach to Understanding' is fun.

Reply 19

OP