why is human life so cheap in modern britain?
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The main problem with our punishments in this country isn't so much sentencing although of course 15 years for some murders is completely unacceptable, but that the emphasis these days that prisons are not houses of correction but ARE the punishment.
The emphasis these days is on containment ,locking people up but in not deterring them from committing crime again. While I do not subscribe to the view that prisons are pleasant places to be,the unpleasantness tends to be with the other people you are forced to reside with rather than those locking you away,from speaking to people who have gone to prison.
Human beings are simple creatures,make an environment unpleasant for them and they tend to do their best to stay away. Does that mean I believe in torturing prisoners no, but I think forcing them to wear uniforms ,march,stand to attention,break rocks ,slop out rather than have a functioning toilet in their cell, no tv, no playstation that can be earnt with goodbehaviour. If you are good you get the ability to have books in your cell instead,perhaps some ****ing material ,and if you can read, you can go to education classes that can be provided. You have years to learn. And prisoners should also realise than any bad behaviour will mean once they get you down the block you will have your head smashed in all over the cell by large men with steel toe capped boots. In the old days they called that 'getting a clean shirt' and was standard practice if you misbehaved.
Far better to use this to cut prison numbers rather than rely on community punishments surpervised by the probation service who Iam reliably informed is made up mainly by too many women who would be better off in social work or nursing.
The emphasis these days is on containment ,locking people up but in not deterring them from committing crime again. While I do not subscribe to the view that prisons are pleasant places to be,the unpleasantness tends to be with the other people you are forced to reside with rather than those locking you away,from speaking to people who have gone to prison.
Human beings are simple creatures,make an environment unpleasant for them and they tend to do their best to stay away. Does that mean I believe in torturing prisoners no, but I think forcing them to wear uniforms ,march,stand to attention,break rocks ,slop out rather than have a functioning toilet in their cell, no tv, no playstation that can be earnt with goodbehaviour. If you are good you get the ability to have books in your cell instead,perhaps some ****ing material ,and if you can read, you can go to education classes that can be provided. You have years to learn. And prisoners should also realise than any bad behaviour will mean once they get you down the block you will have your head smashed in all over the cell by large men with steel toe capped boots. In the old days they called that 'getting a clean shirt' and was standard practice if you misbehaved.
Far better to use this to cut prison numbers rather than rely on community punishments surpervised by the probation service who Iam reliably informed is made up mainly by too many women who would be better off in social work or nursing.
Original post by humanrights
ok, sorry, 1.7 was my typo.
point is, those figures do not prove that US crime rates are the same as they were in the 60s.
they rose because of weak justice policies, they fell again in the US because of tough justice policies.
of course there are other variables-- drugs, desegregation, mass immigration-- but, you have to work pretty hard to deny the link between severity of sentence and level of crime.
i asked ages ago, if your theory was true, then why lock anyone up? surely if crime was independent of sentences, then prison itself is useless?
and if so, why did crime increase since permissive attitudes infected the justice system?
point is, those figures do not prove that US crime rates are the same as they were in the 60s.
they rose because of weak justice policies, they fell again in the US because of tough justice policies.
of course there are other variables-- drugs, desegregation, mass immigration-- but, you have to work pretty hard to deny the link between severity of sentence and level of crime.
i asked ages ago, if your theory was true, then why lock anyone up? surely if crime was independent of sentences, then prison itself is useless?
and if so, why did crime increase since permissive attitudes infected the justice system?
You haven't given anything showing these supposed "permissive attitudes". Show me the changes in laws and sentences you're talking about.
I didn't SAY that crime rate is the same in the USA now as in the 60s... I don't think you've read anything I've written at all, seriously.
"Why lock anyone up" - well actually I've already said a lot of the time this doesn't work... People come out of prison more of a criminal than they went in. Only when someone CAN'T be rehabillitated should they be put in prison forever... Of course there's SOME link between the sentences, but the thing is it's not that relevent in a lot of cases. As I've said, most violent crimes are crimes of emotion or psychological issues... Longder senteces doesn't stop this happening.
My point was there are a lot more factors then JUST this "permissive attitudes" you keep talking about... So many more that you can't put it all down to that at all.
Plus I've given you the example of Norway, proving that they have much less strict laws, and a much lower crime rate and repeating crime rate...
Original post by Emaemmaemily
You haven't given anything showing these supposed "permissive attitudes". Show me the changes in laws and sentences you're talking about.
I didn't SAY that crime rate is the same in the USA now as in the 60s... I don't think you've read anything I've written at all, seriously.
"Why lock anyone up" - well actually I've already said a lot of the time this doesn't work... People come out of prison more of a criminal than they went in. Only when someone CAN'T be rehabillitated should they be put in prison forever... Of course there's SOME link between the sentences, but the thing is it's not that relevent in a lot of cases. As I've said, most violent crimes are crimes of emotion or psychological issues... Longder senteces doesn't stop this happening.
My point was there are a lot more factors then JUST this "permissive attitudes" you keep talking about... So many more that you can't put it all down to that at all.
Plus I've given you the example of Norway, proving that they have much less strict laws, and a much lower crime rate and repeating crime rate...
I didn't SAY that crime rate is the same in the USA now as in the 60s... I don't think you've read anything I've written at all, seriously.
"Why lock anyone up" - well actually I've already said a lot of the time this doesn't work... People come out of prison more of a criminal than they went in. Only when someone CAN'T be rehabillitated should they be put in prison forever... Of course there's SOME link between the sentences, but the thing is it's not that relevent in a lot of cases. As I've said, most violent crimes are crimes of emotion or psychological issues... Longder senteces doesn't stop this happening.
My point was there are a lot more factors then JUST this "permissive attitudes" you keep talking about... So many more that you can't put it all down to that at all.
Plus I've given you the example of Norway, proving that they have much less strict laws, and a much lower crime rate and repeating crime rate...
Well if locking people up doesn't work for some who carry on committing crime, especially those who commit violent crime, why don't we just shoot them?
Original post by Emaemmaemily
You haven't given anything showing these supposed "permissive attitudes". Show me the changes in laws and sentences you're talking about.
I didn't SAY that crime rate is the same in the USA now as in the 60s... I don't think you've read anything I've written at all, seriously.
"Why lock anyone up" - well actually I've already said a lot of the time this doesn't work... People come out of prison more of a criminal than they went in. Only when someone CAN'T be rehabillitated should they be put in prison forever... Of course there's SOME link between the sentences, but the thing is it's not that relevent in a lot of cases. As I've said, most violent crimes are crimes of emotion or psychological issues... Longder senteces doesn't stop this happening.
My point was there are a lot more factors then JUST this "permissive attitudes" you keep talking about... So many more that you can't put it all down to that at all.
Plus I've given you the example of Norway, proving that they have much less strict laws, and a much lower crime rate and repeating crime rate...
I didn't SAY that crime rate is the same in the USA now as in the 60s... I don't think you've read anything I've written at all, seriously.
"Why lock anyone up" - well actually I've already said a lot of the time this doesn't work... People come out of prison more of a criminal than they went in. Only when someone CAN'T be rehabillitated should they be put in prison forever... Of course there's SOME link between the sentences, but the thing is it's not that relevent in a lot of cases. As I've said, most violent crimes are crimes of emotion or psychological issues... Longder senteces doesn't stop this happening.
My point was there are a lot more factors then JUST this "permissive attitudes" you keep talking about... So many more that you can't put it all down to that at all.
Plus I've given you the example of Norway, proving that they have much less strict laws, and a much lower crime rate and repeating crime rate...
all across the western world, crime stared increasing dramatically in the 60s, this is because, all across the western world, governments started feeling sorry for violent criminals and started abolishing capital punishment and blaming society not the individual.--thats what i mean by permissive
things are so bad now, that the average murderer gets 15 years. the average rapist 7 years.
are you saying that increase in crime is not related to the abolition movements and generally weaker attitudes to crime and punishment?
sentences is about deterrent. rehabilitation is about the individual. a violent street thug for example does not change his ways because the system is compassionate to someone else, a street thug changes his ways if he thinks the sentences he is likely to receive is going to be severe.
the weaker the sentences, the easier it is for criminals to justify their actions and take risks.
its is lunacy to think otherwise.
plus, the empirical evidence back ups that commons sense view.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Ministerdonut
Well if locking people up doesn't work for some who carry on committing crime, especially those who commit violent crime, why don't we just shoot them?
I don't mean don't do anything with them... Prisons need to be places of rehabillitation properly, not just a random place for them to be sent and learn to be even better at being criminals.
If rehabillitation doesn't work, then prison for life is the answer.
But for me, it's never right to take the life of someone, no matter what they've done.
Original post by humanrights
all across the western world, crime stared increasing dramatically in the 60s, this is because, all across the western world, governments started feeling sorry for violent criminals and started abolishing capital punishment and blaming society not the individual.--thats what i mean by permissive
things are so bad now, that the average murderer gets 15 years. the average rapist 7 years.
are you saying that increase in crime is not related to the abolition movements and generally weaker attitudes to crime and punishment?
sentences is about deterrent. rehabilitation is about the individual. a violent street thug for example does not change his ways because the system is compassionate to someone else, a street thug changes his ways if he thinks the sentences he is likely to receive is going to be severe.
the weaker the sentences, the easier it is for criminals to justify their actions and take risks.
its is lunacy to think otherwise.
plus, the empirical evidence back ups that commons sense view.
things are so bad now, that the average murderer gets 15 years. the average rapist 7 years.
are you saying that increase in crime is not related to the abolition movements and generally weaker attitudes to crime and punishment?
sentences is about deterrent. rehabilitation is about the individual. a violent street thug for example does not change his ways because the system is compassionate to someone else, a street thug changes his ways if he thinks the sentences he is likely to receive is going to be severe.
the weaker the sentences, the easier it is for criminals to justify their actions and take risks.
its is lunacy to think otherwise.
plus, the empirical evidence back ups that commons sense view.
I didn't say it's not linked at all... But it's not the main and only reason.
Capital punishment is immoral, to me...
I can't be bothered anymore tonight. It's late.
Not that I've read this for a long time as its going round in circles big time but about the crime rate rising, ever considered that more people come forward about crimes?
Things have changed, no one (well...) thinks it's the persons fault if they get raped/abused. It's easier to go to the police and tell them what happened etc.
Things have changed, no one (well...) thinks it's the persons fault if they get raped/abused. It's easier to go to the police and tell them what happened etc.
Original post by clo-clo1
Not that I've read this for a long time as its going round in circles big time but about the crime rate rising, ever considered that more people come forward about crimes?
Things have changed, no one (well...) thinks it's the persons fault if they get raped/abused. It's easier to go to the police and tell them what happened etc.
Things have changed, no one (well...) thinks it's the persons fault if they get raped/abused. It's easier to go to the police and tell them what happened etc.
britain is an infininitely more barbaric place than it used to be. look at this hime office data on homicide rates since 1900. the chart is conclusive.
low crime from 1900 up until around 1960, then dramatic steep increases in homicide.
homocide is the tip of iceberg, it is an indicator of all violent crime in general.
parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by humanrights
britain is an infininitely more barbaric place than it used to be. look at this hime office data on homicide rates since 1900. the chart is conclusive.
low crime from 1900 up until around 1960, then dramatic steep increases in homicide.
homocide is the tip of iceberg, it is an indicator of all violent crime in general.
parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf
low crime from 1900 up until around 1960, then dramatic steep increases in homicide.
homocide is the tip of iceberg, it is an indicator of all violent crime in general.
parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf
Then after say 1997 the chart starts to go down again.
Also:
The British Crime Survey estimates unreported crime; in 1997
56% of crimes were not reported to the police. In earlier years,
this figure was probably higher and accounts for some of the
increase.
And the other graph shows that police strength has grown.
Yes I realise that crime rates have gone up but surely part of it is due to more people coming forward?
Original post by clo-clo1
Then after say 1997 the chart starts to go down again.
Also:
The British Crime Survey estimates unreported crime; in 1997
56% of crimes were not reported to the police. In earlier years,
this figure was probably higher and accounts for some of the
increase.
And the other graph shows that police strength has grown.
Yes I realise that crime rates have gone up but surely part of it is due to more people coming forward?
Also:
The British Crime Survey estimates unreported crime; in 1997
56% of crimes were not reported to the police. In earlier years,
this figure was probably higher and accounts for some of the
increase.
And the other graph shows that police strength has grown.
Yes I realise that crime rates have gone up but surely part of it is due to more people coming forward?
crime rates went down marginally in mid 90s rising again in the 00s. it has not dropped significiantly at all since the massive increase in the 60s.
the evidence is pretty clear that weak, permissive, justice policies are to blame. crime probably would have risen anyway because of the new drug culture, mass immigration, loss of religious morality-- but, in that case, justice should have got stronger in response. not weaker.
britain is now in the worst of all situations-- an ever increasing violent underclass and a remote and permissive justice system.
Original post by humanrights
crime rates went down marginally in mid 90s rising again in the 00s. it has not dropped significiantly at all since the massive increase in the 60s.
the evidence is pretty clear that weak, permissive, justice policies are to blame. crime probably would have risen anyway because of the new drug culture, mass immigration, loss of religious morality-- but, in that case, justice should have got stronger in response. not weaker.
britain is now in the worst of all situations-- an ever increasing violent underclass and a remote and permissive justice system.
the evidence is pretty clear that weak, permissive, justice policies are to blame. crime probably would have risen anyway because of the new drug culture, mass immigration, loss of religious morality-- but, in that case, justice should have got stronger in response. not weaker.
britain is now in the worst of all situations-- an ever increasing violent underclass and a remote and permissive justice system.
They haven't risen again since 2000. Please refer to my previous evidence. Crime rates are still going down from the 90s, and are lower than they have been since the 60s.
I already gave you this evidence.
Britain isn't anywhere near the worst... It's near the BOTTOM of the table in terms of violent crime... I also showed you that.
You seem to be ignoring everything I've said, and trying to persuade someone else this stuff instead.
Original post by humanrights
crime rates went down marginally in mid 90s rising again in the 00s. it has not dropped significiantly at all since the massive increase in the 60s.
Also partly because more people come forward about crimes, the 60s changed a lot of things.
Original post by tpowertj
Why is your username humanrights you authoritarian b*stard
im trying so hard but i just cant negg you
Haha try going to Afghanistan :P
Original post by superman-lives
Haha try going to Afghanistan :P
I have its really difficult
Original post by Emaemmaemily
They haven't risen again since 2000. Please refer to my previous evidence. Crime rates are still going down from the 90s, and are lower than they have been since the 60s.
I already gave you this evidence.
Britain isn't anywhere near the worst... It's near the BOTTOM of the table in terms of violent crime... I also showed you that.
You seem to be ignoring everything I've said, and trying to persuade someone else this stuff instead.
I already gave you this evidence.
Britain isn't anywhere near the worst... It's near the BOTTOM of the table in terms of violent crime... I also showed you that.
You seem to be ignoring everything I've said, and trying to persuade someone else this stuff instead.
are you just arguing for the sake of it now??
the crime rates are NOT lower than the 60s. why would you say such an absurd and easily refuted lie?
crime rates are still massively higher than the 60s-- the era of permissive justice.
just because they drop a few percentage points one year, it does not mean the trend is down.
britain one of the most violent nations in the so called 'first world'
where do you get these links from that say otherwise? please, post them so i can take a look.
the point of the OP is, human life is cheap in modern britain. sentences prove that.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by clo-clo1
Also partly because more people come forward about crimes, the 60s changed a lot of things.
well, if you want to believe that. but i don't think so and even if that was true, it would be minimal.
permissive attitudes, and empathy for violence is the root cause of the barbarism that blights human beings all across britain.
just yesterday, a 5 year old girl was shot in london. in a civilised society the gunman would be executed as a message that such acts are not acceptable, but in violent crime loving britain, the gunman will be shown compassion, especially if he is a teenager, and given no more than a few years. thus proving that shooting little girls is not a very serious offence.
life is cheap.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by humanrights
are you just arguing for the sake of it now??
the crime rates are NOT lower than the 60s. why would you say such an absurd and easily refuted lie?
crime rates are still massively higher than the 60s-- the era of permissive justice.
just because they drop a few percentage points one year, it does not mean the trend is down.
britain one of the most violent nations in the so called 'first world'
where do you get these links from that say otherwise? please, post them so i can take a look.
the point of the OP is, human life is cheap in modern britain. sentences prove that.
the crime rates are NOT lower than the 60s. why would you say such an absurd and easily refuted lie?
crime rates are still massively higher than the 60s-- the era of permissive justice.
just because they drop a few percentage points one year, it does not mean the trend is down.
britain one of the most violent nations in the so called 'first world'
where do you get these links from that say otherwise? please, post them so i can take a look.
the point of the OP is, human life is cheap in modern britain. sentences prove that.
no, I'm arguing because you keep saying things I've already disproven.
Go back to one of my links, it proves my point.
Paedophiles and rapists should be castrated, it's an excellent deterrent and they won't re-offend.
Inb4 the people who neg rep me; why do you disagree? Is it because you fear castration yourself? Don't attack people then. Your views would probably change if you yourself were attacked and you had to live with the awful consequences. Just a thought.
People of course have different views on what they think is appropriate punishment for these monsters, but the sentencing they get these days is ridiculous.
People shouldn't be allowed to have their names changed to protect their privacy - they invaded their victims' privacy and right to life when they committed their atrocious acts. The courts need to toughen up and stop providing excuses.
I'm not sure I agree with the death penalty though - a quiet, peaceful death via lethal injection seems too kind considering these people will have murdered and attacked people in the most horrific way possible. They should be made to work and not see the light of day again so they can spend each waking hour thinking about what they have done and hating every minute they have left of their life.
Inb4 the people who neg rep me; why do you disagree? Is it because you fear castration yourself? Don't attack people then. Your views would probably change if you yourself were attacked and you had to live with the awful consequences. Just a thought.
People of course have different views on what they think is appropriate punishment for these monsters, but the sentencing they get these days is ridiculous.
People shouldn't be allowed to have their names changed to protect their privacy - they invaded their victims' privacy and right to life when they committed their atrocious acts. The courts need to toughen up and stop providing excuses.
I'm not sure I agree with the death penalty though - a quiet, peaceful death via lethal injection seems too kind considering these people will have murdered and attacked people in the most horrific way possible. They should be made to work and not see the light of day again so they can spend each waking hour thinking about what they have done and hating every minute they have left of their life.
(edited 13 years ago)
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