3 out of 4 'danger doctors' are immigrants.

Sorry. I am one of these nasty foreigners too. Which makes most of that psuedo-babble pointless.

saying standards in other countries are better than Britain, if not better, is not proof. anecdotal evidence is not proof.

Yes some may be better but there will be many developing countries where this is not the case.....it's not doctors from America who are being struck Off is it?

the medical council its indians who are most likely to be struck off. so let me ask you, why are british indians trained over here not being struck off at disproportionate levels?

As I have already stated:

As another poster has already stated, patients are no more likely to report a foreign doctor than a 'native' one. However NHS supervisors, for whatever reason are more likely to do so.

This is most likely because 'native' doctors will be able to handle false cases better than foreign ones new to the system. The fact that a higher proportion of foreign doctors have been struck off does not mean their training was of a lower quality.

Besides my proof is not "anecdotal". There is no such study or statistic into how good foreign doctors are, so I was using honest information. You cannot be sure if I am telling the truth, but that is because as a society we expect and do lie above all else. What I said was correct and you cannot deal with it.

British Indians may not be struct off so readily, but my current GP is a British Indian and he is a bad GP.

At least I have first hand evidence rather than quasi-statistical data.

Sorry. I am one of these nasty foreigners too. Which makes most of that psuedo-babble pointless.

You can be a foreigner but still act like an idiot. And you have just proved you are an idiot, by typing pseudo babble (incorrectly spelt "psuedo"). You just said basically that my babble is false babble, in which case you mean it is not babble (i.e., it is serious). Thanks for making a fool of yourself.

American doctors don't get struck off because an American doctor wouldn't want to work here. They make much more money over in America.

Reply 41

_-_Ella_-_

18

As long as the doctor's are safe and can be understood by the average British citizen I don't see the problem. A simple way to ensure this is that all doctors should get a test based on what the NHS expects but this test should only be allowed to be completed 2/3 times at the most. If they fail they are denied by the NHS. I would have thought that something like this was already in place but if the OP is correct then obviously the system is not working. I personally do not care where my doctor is from. I have a foreign doctor now and he is very good and WELL trained. Also I think you should read this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252359/Scandal-failing-foreign-doctors-demand-right-sit-GP-exams-staggering-SIX-times.html

Reply 42

username1002982

14

Original post by OU Student

eh? I was just talking about my own experience. :confused:

I think they were just looking for someone to attack and you were the first person they saw.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 43

prog2djent

Isn't this obvious, regulations are far more lax and qualifications far more dodgy from abroad.

Reply 44

Snagprophet

17

They shouldn't be here if there's better trainned natives out of work.

Reply 45

Llamageddon

18

We don't look to foreign doctors because they are better. We look to foreign doctors because we have an insufficient pool of British doctors from which to fill the requisite posts. The problem is, also, not that foreign doctors are all bad, but that we do not have sufficient supply of talent from which to only employ the good ones.

Overall though once you start talking about ones that get struck-off you are talking about a tiny minority of doctors. The smaller the population size the more meaningless the data you get out of it, etc.

Reply 46

Llamageddon

18

Original post by Snagprophet

They shouldn't be here if there's better trainned natives out of work.

Medicine enjoys an obscenely high graduate employment rate.

Reply 47

Hopple

18

I'm surprised we have any foreignly trained doctors. We easily have enough competent A Level students applying for medicine every year, and they're going to be at a huge advantage having grown up in this country, with the same first language as their patients etc. It's easier to verify their training too if we're just looking at British universities.

Reply 48

Azarimanka

2

Original post by S.R

Boneheaded nationalism will be the death of this country. If a foreign doctor is better you are saying we shouldn't take him just because he is not British? Ringfencing jobs for British citizens only does not solve the problem, improving British doctor training will.

Yes I am. Whats the point in spending as much as we do on training medical professionals if we aren't going to use them? Its not nationalism, but common sense. I also think most people are more comfortable with native English speakers than people who struggle with English or have strong accents.

Reply 49

Hopple

18

Original post by Llamageddon

We don't look to foreign doctors because they are better. We look to foreign doctors because we have an insufficient pool of British doctors from which to fill the requisite posts. The problem is, also, not that foreign doctors are all bad, but that we do not have sufficient supply of talent from which to only employ the good ones.

Overall though once you start talking about ones that get struck-off you are talking about a tiny minority of doctors. The smaller the population size the more meaningless the data you get out of it, etc.

We have plenty of potentially capable aspiring doctors at A Level, we just don't have the capacity (or the will) to train them up. There were students predicted 4 or 5 As (back in my day when there wasn't the A*) who'd get rejected from all their choices because there are too few places for study, ending up taking a gap year when they could have easily got into another course that year - this most likely deters a lot more potential doctors from applying to the course because it's an all-or-nothing shot with only one personal statement being allowed.

Reply 50

MilitaryPatch

Original post by kombu

the general medical council has just revealed that 3 out of every 4 doctors who have been struck off in the last 5 years have been trained abroad.

• Three quarters of doctors struck off the medical register this year were trained abroad.

• Doctors trained overseas are five times more likely to be struck off than those trained in the UK.

• The country with the biggest single number of doctors who have been removed or suspended from the medical register, is India, followed by Nigeria and Egypt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9771022/Revealed-3-in-4-of-Britains-danger-doctors-are-trained-abroad.html

for someone like me who is a passionate supporter of the NHS and the welfare state, it absolutely appals me to see the NHS hiring these cheap, poorly trained foreign doctors when half of all newly qualified british GP's cannot get permanent work in this country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3241853/Half-of-newly-qualified-GPs-cannot-find-permanent-jobs-doctors-survey-finds.html

the NHS is putting peoples lives at risk for the sake of cheap labour -- and the more it imports cheap labour, the more it will push out british trained doctors and the downward spiral will continue.

( edit: cheap because NHS does not have to train them and a saturated job market stagnates pay for everyone )

british people must stop being so naive and wide eyed about these matters -- standards in some other countries are simply not as high as here.

Well said. And definitely agree, but you have to ask why they do this. What the actual root cause is. It's a difficult one, for sure. Personally I totally agree with you, but I have to stress that there are some very good overseas Medical Professionals working alongside us today, so I also agree that you use the word "some" rather than "all" because that would be generalising and quite wrong.

I think the reason is partly (though not the entirety of the reason) because the UK does not want to be seen as discriminatory or elitist, as, in its earlier days, was. As time has gone on, the NHS has adapted to many adversities and difficulties and withstood the test of time itself.

The other reasons, are probably less known to all of us, or there'd not be so much debate... but I definitely agree with the basic point of what you are saying.

There are many excellent highly skilled Medical personnel out there who get overlooked because of this.

Perhaps, just possible, maybe, that the UK has taken this discrimination thing a little too far.

But surely diversity is good, as much of the UK is diverse in culture. This is though, less about race, and more about skill and prioritising who should be more eligible for what position first, before the eye of gaze falls to those from overseas.

Either way, I thank you for your post.
Patch.

Reply 51

S.R

3

Original post by Azarimanka

Yes I am. Whats the point in spending as much as we do on training medical professionals if we aren't going to use them? Its not nationalism, but common sense. I also think most people are more comfortable with native English speakers than people who struggle with English or have strong accents.

Common sense is taking the most qualified and most experienced person regardless or race or nationality or whatever. All foreign doctors have to pass English tests of course. Looking at the competitiveness of medicine we probably train too many doctors. Lets be honest a lot are just in it for the money or their asian parents forced them into it.

Reply 52

Jarowi

7

Let's not forget that the mail and the daily telegraph do love a good-old, borderline racist moan about the state of the country.

There isn't a great deal that I think this article will achieve other than create public dismay that'll lead to stereotyping. I'm sure the GMC will handle any problem that needs addressed if that is the case.

Reply 53

DorianGrayism

19

Original post by kombu

to save money. it saves the NHS billions hiring doctors and other specialists from overseas as they do not have to invest in training.

as a side note, this practice is called 'poaching' and as well as being highly immoral, is actually illegal (UN Resolution 2417 forbids poaching specialist professionals )

It does not cost the NHS "billions" to train. That is why students go to Medical school and spend 5 years + there.

Also, it is not illegal according to UN resolution 2417. Even ignoring that, no one is kidnapping workers to bring them here.They come here so they can have a better life.

Reply 54

Hopple

18

Original post by DorianGrayism

It does not cost the NHS "billions" to train. That is why students go to Medical school and spend 5 years + there.

Also, it is not illegal according to UN resolution 2417. Even ignoring that, no one is kidnapping workers to bring them here.They come here so they can have a better life.

Presumably it is cheaper to get someone who is deemed to be of an acceptable competence from abroad than train someone up to that level. Though I wouldn't be surprised (and I don't think anyone else would be either) that doctors trained by the NHS here are more suited to working in the NHS here than those who weren't. There are more than enough top A Level students applying for medicine every year, but they aren't taken on because of a lack of spaces, which is in turn due to a lack of funding.

Reply 55

S.R

3

Original post by Algorithm69

That;s what I thought. Common sense, right? But the Telegraph article says differently:

Under the current system, British hospitals and medical agencies which hire doctors are not allowed to test the language skills of those from EU countries to seek if staff will be able to communicate safely.

Oh dear.

Reply 56

Izzyeviel

19

How many 'dangerous doctors' are there?

Reply 57

nosaer

Original post by Algorithm69

That;s what I thought. Common sense, right? But the Telegraph article says differently:

Under the current system, British hospitals and medical agencies which hire doctors are not allowed to test the language skills of those from EU countries to seek if staff will be able to communicate safely.

Not quite. European law prevents the regulatory body from systematically testing all EEA nationals on their English language skills - foreign doctors from outside Europe have to pass increasingly difficult English tests. However, there's nothing stopping individual NHS hospital and employers from testing said language skills, which they can and do throughout the interview and application process.

In any case, it is more of an anomaly in the law which is due to be changed soon anyway.