Shadowing VS Surgical Elective?

Was this through your university? Why are you self-organising weeks of shadowing inside term time?

Do they know you're a first year?

...Have you organised an elective as a first year? Lol.

As for why: why not? I know surgery's the career for me, might as well start early.

As for why: why not? I know surgery's the career for me, might as well start early.

Hi, I posted a few days ago about being due to start a month long shadowing with a cardiothoracic surgeon.

Today I just received an official email from someone at the Hospital confirming everything, and also informed me that it's a student elective as opposed to just shadowing. specifically a "Student Elective in Cardiothoracic Surgery under the supervision of Mr [insert surgeon's name]"

Does this mean It'll actually be treated purely as an elective as opposed to shadowing, and if so would it count as an official elective in regards to my medical degree? (I'm 1st year so not doing clinical placements yet) Can someone also explain the exact differences in roles the student is expected to play in shadowing vs elective placement

thanks

Does this mean It'll actually be treated purely as an elective as opposed to shadowing, and if so would it count as an official elective in regards to my medical degree? (I'm 1st year so not doing clinical placements yet) Can someone also explain the exact differences in roles the student is expected to play in shadowing vs elective placement

We've now ended up moving the dates to out of term time (winter break starting from dec 18) because it would have been too inconvenient in term time because of classes

As for why: why not? I know surgery's the career for me, might as well start early.

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself.. What are you expecting to gain from the experience? You'll be very lucky to be allowed to assist in theatres but either way I'm not sure if you'd get much benefit from being in theatre to begin with if you don't have your anatomy basics yet.

If you won't be in theatres, I presume you'll be on the wards? You could maybe practise your history taking (what you'll have learnt so far) but very little else other than basic procedures.

All in all I'm not sure if I'm convinced if that's the best idea at your stage.. but it would certainly help us guide you if you tell us what you're expecting to gain.

At my school, electives must be spent doing hand-on clinical work in preparation for graduation so there wouldn't be a chance in hell of that counting as an elective. Not that I'd want it to either - elective is most people's best experience from medical school and I can't wait for mine haha.

Most likely it is simply a case of semantics and you'll be shadowing the surgeon as was previously agreed. As others have said, I would be slightly cautious about pigeon-holing yourself so early in your career when you can't realistically have a great understanding of what it entails but don't hesitate to follow your interests. Be careful about burning yourself out and taking on too much, especially during first year which is stressful and a big step-up for most people but otherwise, I'd say go for it!

I don't think there is a defined universal role for an 'elective' student as opposed to a 'shadowing' student- my experience of placements is that they vary greatly in what you are expected to do and what opportunities are open to you depending on numerous factors ranging from how willing the staff are to teach, how busy the department is , the patient case load etc...



Its great that you're enthusiastic and proactive, and you are to be commended for that. But I'd just be mindful of a few things: firstly, be careful that you dont try to run before you can crawl- you are a long way from speciality selection, and there are many many hoops that you will have to jump through before you are in a position to start surgical training in earnest (if thats still what you'll want to do by the time you get there). Its great to get in early, but all your endeavours will be worthless if you don't also make sure that you pass first year and all subsequent years in med school (of which surgery will only be a small part). At my med school, the president of the student surgical society a couple of years above me came periolusly close to being chucked out for failing third year- he'd been so devoted to heading up the society he had neglected to brush up on all the neuro, psych, rehab, paeds and o&g he needed to pass the exams....

Also, burn out is real and common. Medical school is a long long slog and I wouldn't go sacrificing holidays unnecessarily. This comes from my own bitter experience- I was very into trop med in the early years of medical school, and I managed to get a sponsored summer placement abroad in a hospital between 2nd and 3rd year. It was a great experience, and I learned a lot, but it used up pretty much all of my summer break so I returned to a gruelling clinical year completely exhausted and went ever so slightly mental with the stress of it all. Hence, I'm a great believer in the vital importance of taking proper breaks as a survival tactic!!!

Hey thanks for the reply and encouragement! =) I think its the opposite of pigeon holing actually, One of the purposes of getting myself clinical experience/placements is so that i can gain a much better and realistic understanding of what the specialities i'm interested in entails so that i'm more informed when i make statements like "i'm very interested in so so and so" for example. To me it really doesn't make much difference whether i'm in1st year or 3rd year because my learning objectives are the same

As for why: why not? I know surgery's the career for me, might as well start early."

This sounds quite a lot like pigeon-holing, in that you are unerringly sure of what you want to do before having a "realistic understanding of what the specialties you're interested in entails" and are now seeking justification for your interests.

Really think people running all of the hostile "oh you're too keen stop it! what are you doing! that's stupid! you're an idiot!" need to back off a little bit. If he wants to do some shadowing in first year, exactly how does that effect you in any way? Indeed, Newcastle has an official scheme that encourages periods of shadowing through a central database during pre-clinical years. If the OP likes surgery and wants to see a little bit more, how exactly is it a bad idea to see a little bit more? Is it just because you weren't as keen in first year and are feeling a bit jealous?

It's absolutely astounding that you'd try and nip this kind of behaviour in the bud. What's the worst that could happen, he does it, doesn't enjoy it, so changes his mind. That's a successful period of shadowing just as much as "oh my god this is amazing!" As for people saying the whole "oh it won't count on your CV it's worthless" - it's not all about a CV in life... Really surprised at what people have said in this thread.

OP: The secretary is probably just used to people making contact for medical electives and thinks that any period where a student comes in is an 'elective'. It might be worth emailing the surgeon directly and just letting him know that you're a first year wanting to shadow rather than an elective elective student in case he gets confused (and you get embarrassed), and mention you've already arranged with his secretary but you're just making contact with him to explain. His email will probably be on the university or Trust website.

Really think people running all of the hostile "oh you're too keen stop it! what are you doing! that's stupid! you're an idiot!" need to back off a little bit. If he wants to do some shadowing in first year, exactly how does that effect you in any way? Indeed, Newcastle has an official scheme that encourages periods of shadowing through a central database during pre-clinical years. If the OP likes surgery and wants to see a little bit more, how exactly is it a bad idea to see a little bit more? Is it just because you weren't as keen in first year and are feeling a bit jealous?

It's absolutely astounding that you'd try and nip this kind of behaviour in the bud. What's the worst that could happen, he does it, doesn't enjoy it, so changes his mind. That's a successful period of shadowing just as much as "oh my god this is amazing!" As for people saying the whole "oh it won't count on your CV it's worthless" - it's not all about a CV in life... Really surprised at what people have said in this thread.

OP: The secretary is probably just used to people making contact for medical electives and thinks that any period where a student comes in is an 'elective'. It might be worth emailing the surgeon directly and just letting him know that you're a first year wanting to shadow rather than an elective elective student in case he gets confused (and you get embarrassed), and mention you've already arranged with his secretary but you're just making contact with him to explain. His email will probably be on the university or Trust website.

Is there anyone ever who is likely to think that?

It's more a case of trying to stop him from getting to FY1 and realising he squanded his time in medical school and wasted his holidays. Come on mate, are you telling me that if you'd done a stint in surgery as a first year medical student - one who has done under four months of medicine no less - you'd be better prepared to do anything? It's the same vein as GEP vs undergrad; there are differences to start but not at the end. He's going to be in a pretty similar place as a collegue in 12-18 months from now apart from possibly closer to burn out having given up his holidays to stand around looking over a surgeons shoulder. Do you think somebody who did a months worth of surgery work experience would be better equipped at the end of even year 1, never mind year 3 or 4?

I wouldn't tell a sixth from student to give up his entire Christmas holiday following a surgeon round all day, even though they have significiantly more to gain from it with an application to medicine. Despite having had plenty of early clinical contact in years 1/2, I still think it's a pretty pointless experience and I could have spent my time being far more productive.

People can do what they like, but you shouldn't pretend that milling around on a ward round and staring at the floor in surgury after a couple of months of medicine is going to be approaching an efficient and worthwhile use of time.

Is there anyone ever who is likely to think that?

It's more a case of trying to stop him from getting to FY1 and realising he squanded his time in medical school and wasted his holidays. Come on mate, are you telling me that if you'd done a stint in surgery as a first year medical student - one who has done under four months of medicine no less - you'd be better prepared to do anything? It's the same vein as GEP vs undergrad; there are differences to start but not at the end. He's going to be in a pretty similar place as a collegue in 12-18 months from now apart from possibly closer to burn out having given up his holidays to stand around looking over a surgeons shoulder. Do you think somebody who did a months worth of surgery work experience would be better equipped at the end of even year 1, never mind year 3 or 4?

I wouldn't tell a sixth from student to give up his entire Christmas holiday following a surgeon round all day, even though they have significiantly more to gain from it with an application to medicine. Despite having had plenty of early clinical contact in years 1/2, I still think it's a pretty pointless experience and I could have spent my time being far more productive.

People can do what they like, but you shouldn't pretend that milling around on a ward round and staring at the floor in surgury after a couple of months of medicine is going to be approaching an efficient and worthwhile use of time.

Passive aggressive much?

From your comment you seem pretty bitter and give the impression that you feel threatened by someone else's efforts. If you feel your own clinical contact in years 1/2 were pointless and could have been more productive it's probably because you were to busy staring at the floor in surgery and milling around on a ward round as opposed to setting realistic and clear learning objectives for yourself and studying the relevant anatomy in depth beforehand. You wasted your own time. boo hoo. No need to get bitter at someone else you don't even know who might actually end up making valuable use of their time and having a productive experience.
It's all the more funny when you say "I wouldnt ask a sixth form student to give up his christmas holiday to follow a surgeon around all day" - was anybody asking you? your opinion is irrelevant. If someone wants to spend their time doing something productive and something that they'll personally enjoy then that's good for them. I'd personally rather spend my time gaining clinical experience and learning as much as i can in a clinical setting than refusing to give up my oh so valuable christmas holiday so that i can what? party and eat and sing christmas carols? It's just sad that you're so threatened by how someone else chooses to spend their time.

This thread was created to ask a simple question: if anyone could explain the difference in elective vs shadowing and why the hospital listed it as an elective. Instead quite a few people have the idea that someone was asking for their opinion on how i choose to spend my time and have come here to feed their egos.
its kind of funny.